Sometimes I think America is a land of haves and have-nots in different ways than most people think. It's not about money, class, race or geography. Nope, it's simply about your view on life.
The haves wanted and got an education, are intellectually curious, seek information, and understand finance, math, history and science at least on a basic level. They enjoy the arts, support their communities, save for their future, and are generally aware of current events. The haves max out their 401k at work, invest on the side, spend less than they make, and hope to retire in their 50s.
The haves saved, put 10% or 20% down on a home, took out a 30-year fixed, never did a cash-out refi, didn't buy more than they could afford, and pay more than the minimum on their house and car payments (if they have 'em). The haves laughed at the slimy "exotic" mortgage ads the past few years and noticed when house prices detached from the fundamentals. And a lot of them cashed out of the bubble at the peak and now rent.
Then there's the have-nots.
They love their Jerry Springer, America's Next Top Model and People magazine. They think all people who like the arts are fags. They never read a newspaper, they never crack open a book. They think social security will be there for them when they retire (no, seriously). They don't understand the simple concepts of evolution and the big bang, or if they do they don't believe them because god and his proxies told them it's all bunk. The have-nots see the American flag on Fox News and think it's there because Fox News is the channel of god, patriotism and America. The have-nots think shopping at Wal-Mart is patriotic and all-American too. They used to be Democrats and now they got conned into thinking they're Republicans.
And yes, it's the have-nots who took out a no-down, no-doc, interest-only, teaser-rate loan because their mortgage broker or have-not friend said it was the smart thing to do. They think home values never go down. And they don't know what's going on with housing because they don't seek out information, or reject information they don't want to hear.
Sure, some of the haves screwed up, got sucked into the bubble's debt-equals-wealth-machine, and are now going to get spit out. But that's a small subset of the haves. My theory is that the entire group of have-nots got sucked up into the exotic loan and cash-out-refi mess, with many of them blowing refi proceeds on big-ticket consumer items, cars and shopping sprees. And I surmise that the foreclosure parade will now be led by the have-nots, and they're gonna be pissed at (and blame) the haves.
I believe HP'ers skew heavily toward the 'haves' (except for REIC trolls). Why else did you end up at HP? If you're not a full-fledged have, at least you may be on your way. We just got to get you off of Fox News.
OK, have at it.
October 11, 2006
America: The land of the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'
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i haves a big house
i haves a big car(2)
i haves 14 credit cards
i haves a wide screen tv (plus 3 mores)
i haves me hair done every week
i haves me a collegiate edumacation
i haves what it takes
you dont be tellin me what i haves and haves not.
Keith,
Another outstanding commentary on American Society on your part!
However, I beg to differ on some of the points regarding the "haves".
Sadly for the "haves", they have ALSO been conned into believing that:
1. Their monetary system is sound
2. That a 401(k)/IRA is safe
3. That Social Security is a "trust fund" that will be there for them in their retirement
4. That inflation is low
5. That stocks that pay virtually ZERO dividends are a "good investment"
6. That there is actually a difference between the two political parties
So, even the supposedly better-educated of the sheeple are still herded into pens of slaughter--just nicer, cleaner pens.
Yet, we will all go down together as the U.S. careens toward the abyss of debt destruction, whipsawed by massive liquidity injections.
kinda like smart and dumb...
Most of the MTV watchers are headed
for the 'have not' section
No guarantees, but things are
better than Butch seems to think.
(IMHO)
The boomers will get social security because of their huge voting block.
I agree with the haves and have-nots theory, but I think your examples stink. There are a lot of "intellectual" types who you put in the "have" group that are really stupid people who overspent and are now screwed. There are also a lot of the Fox News crowd (I like to call them the Nascar crowd) that are in the same position as the "intellectual" types. Some are screwed and some aren't. I also believe that the "religeous right" that you are describing are the best off financially because they save, use traditional loans, and don't spend as out of control as often.
Trust me, I'm not defending any of these groups. I can't stand the pseudo-intellectuals, the nascar crowd or the religeous right. I just don't think that this is a good way to judge people's spending habits.
Its hard to generalize to the extent that Keith has here, but it does make a point. In the end there are two mentalities: those that are willing to support themselves and their future, and those that just want everything practically handed to them.
Anyway, I'm not sure what to do with my 401k and IRA accounts at this point. I'm still dumping a large percentage of my paycheck into 401k. I'm inclined to just cut it back to the minimum that is matched by the company and let what is there stay where its at. What do folks like Butch have to say about that?
gary said...
Its hard to generalize to the extent that Keith has here, but it does make a point. In the end there are two mentalities: those that are willing to support themselves and their future, and those that just want everything practically handed to them.
Agreed.
Anonymous said...
The boomers will get social security because of their huge voting block.
Yeah but remember Greenspan (in his fabulously muddled Greenspan diction) before congress testified that while he could guarantee that social security would be there and pay promised amounts, he couldn't guarantee what those amounts would be able to purchase....get ready for your $80.00 cup of coffee!!
(Gary stated/asked:)
"Anyway, I'm not sure what to do with my 401k and IRA accounts at this point. I'm still dumping a large percentage of my paycheck into 401k. I'm inclined to just cut it back to the minimum that is matched by the company and let what is there stay where its at. What do folks like Butch have to say about that?"
(Reply) First, you must establish whether or not you accept my premise that the 401(k)/IRA is a sheeple pen designed to shear you of your hard earned money. To verify what I have proposed, please check the following references on Google or Amazon:
1. "What if Boomers Can't Retire"
2. "The Great 401(k) Hoax"
3. The Great Mutual Fund Trap"
In addition to these fine books, ask yourelf (and try to find answers to, some of which I will supply here) these basic questions:
1. Who lobbied for the ERISA laws which created the individual retirement fund accounts? (Hint: It was NOT organized labor!)
2. Why is corporate America running away from the "defined benefit" type of pension, when in fact it has allowed them to take BILLIONS of dollars, play all kind of investment and accounting games with the money and even use it to smooth their earnings?
3. What kind of fees (both disclosed and hidden) am I being clipped for in my 401(k), including obscured bid/ask spreads?
4. Why does my employer only offer me a few "menu choices" in my investment portfolio, offered by a "plan administrator"? Does this administrator "rebate" any money to my employer?
5. Have I ever considered that perhaps the IMPLIED "lower tax rate" that I have been promised when I retire and want to take my money out of the 401(k) might actually be much, much higher than taxes are now?
5. Why is there a tax-penalty if I want to withdraw MY money out of MY account before I retire? (Hint: You are being treated like a child/sheeple by the feds because they believe you ARE one!)
6. If the preponderance of people's 401(k)/IRAs are "invested" in stocks, what happens when the 77 million Baby Boomers start to sell their stocks to fund their retirement?
7. Why do I accept the notion that I should buy stocks that pay virtually NO dividends and must be sold to a "greater fool" in order for me to profit?
After you find the answers to these questions, you will then have enough information to decide whether you believe the 401(k)/IRA is such a great deal for the masses.
My sense is that after you have done your homework on this subject, you won't be nearly so ambivalent on what to do...
The boomers will get social security because of their huge voting block.
Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:30:04 AM
Does not matter vote or no vote, block, smlock. Social Security will not be there for the younger Boomers and on. It has been pilfered. I have governed myself accordingly.
gary said...
Its hard to generalize to the extent that Keith has here, but it does make a point. In the end there are two mentalities: those that are willing to support themselves and their future, and those that just want everything practically handed to them.
It's not even that simple. A lot of the big debt holders are some of the hardest working people around.
But it should be noted that it's not how hard you work- it's how smart you work. Or how much of your earnings you are able to keep in the end.
Butch, thanks for your input. Right now I know enough to realize that something is wrong in the U.S., but I still have a lot to learn. I'll be looking into the things you suggested.
Father and son chat:
Son: Hey dad, where does milk come from?
Dad: The store of course, boy.
(BTW - dad has 3 advanced degrees and 100 billion in the bank)
mr. smith said "It's not even that simple. A lot of the big debt holders are some of the hardest working people around."
I did not mean to imply that the "self supporters" never have any debt. But if a person gets themselves into debt that they can't handle and/or expects all the rewards with none of the risk, then they fall into the second group that I mentioned. (IMHO)
Hey Gary - I guess under you defs of not being able to pay back debt - THE ENTIRE USofA is a bunch of have nots.
Long live Amerika
I guess you could argue that everyone in the U.S. is a have not, Richard. Considering that we don't really own real estate, cars, etc. And most of us participate in the Federal Reserve System.
My point was not that there are "haves" and "have-nots", but that there are two very obvious mentalities prevailing in the people of the U.S. You obviously don't agree with Keith's original post, but I think I see, and agree with, the concept that he was trying to convey.
Yes Gary on this we agree:
"but that there are two very obvious mentalities prevailing "
1) 99.9 percent brain dead
2) those who critically think - or the remaining .01%
Ladies and Gents...I give U more have nots...
THE CURRENT MASS EXTINCTION:
Human beings are currently causing the greatest
mass extinction of species since the extinction of
the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. If present trends
continue one half of all species of life on earth will
be extinct in less than 100 years, as a result of
habitat destruction, pollution, invasive species,
and climate change.
http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html
Ahh, the good people and the evil people. Now we can better channel our hatred and disgust at those evil people. Nice work… You should run for office…
Richtard the threadjacker, What do you all day besides check back here every ten minutes? Get a life!
I dont come here to read about your antics, go away so I can get some serious info once in awhile. Between you and borkafatty you make me feel like a "HAVE NOT" with all your expertise logic.
Gag me.
my parents have been living in their house for over 20 years.
they raised 3 boys: an FBI agent, a CPA and and conmputer engineer.
those 3 boys are the first in our family to go to college.
i am now married to a lovely woman.
we have 2 cars all paid for.
we have a 400k condo paid for.
we have a 2 million dollar home in the hamptons that we only owe 400k on now. we rent it for 75k in the summer time.
and keith my idiot blogger here is the kicker:
we belive in God and watch fox news.
what a tool you can be sometimes man.
Butch said…
(Reply) First, you must establish whether or not you accept my premise that the 401(k)/IRA is a sheeple pen designed to shear you of your hard earned money.
Absolutely agree. When this plan was first announced many years ago I told my wife we will NOT invest a dime in another government sponsored saving scheme designed to bail out social security when it goes insolvent. Today we own a paid off custom house on 3 acres in the country, debt free and have $200K plus in CD’s at 5.25 % interest. And the best part, our core housing cost (prop tax + insurance) is $466 month which is 1/3 the cost of a one bedroom apartment in our locality. No thank you Mr. Government, I will decide how to invest my disposable income.
Keith ... I believe I understand the "gist" of what you are trying to say. You are using the words "have" and "have not" to try to cleanly divide the population. However, I think your choice of words is perhaps the reason people here are finding all kinds of exceptions. Although there is no way to accurately do this, I offer this analysis. See if you agree.
I tend to divide people up into two groups as well. The dividing line is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. On the one side is the American who takes personal responsibility for his/her actions, words, family, child rearing, religion, investments, savings, housing, career, etc. In other words, everything.
For example, in the category of investments, one who exercises a great degree of personal responsibility will actually research and make an informed decision as to whether plunking a vast portion of their income into a 401k (or other place) is a good idea or not. I do not have a 401k or other retirement account by choice. Sure, I've been scolded by the main stream thought process but I have done MY analysis of what I think will happen. The major premise underpinning tax-deferred retirement accounts is the assumption that your future tax rate later in life will be lower. I personally believe that is no longer a "guarantee". So, for me and my family, I have all after tax investments. I've paid my taxes, dealt with a known tax rate and my savings at retirement are mine to do as I please. I can draw it down as quickly or as slowly as I please. If you have a tax "advantaged" account, you will be forced to sell or liquidate as a predetermined pace based on your age. Guess what? So will everyone else. And with all that forced selling, prices will tumble as they have not yet repealed the law of supply/demand. Ok, example finished.
Now, on the other side, you have all those people who don't take responsibility for themselves. They tend to hire "advisors". They trust the talking heads on television. They trust their bank, their mortgage company, their retirement advisor, their school system and teachers without checking and verifying; in other words, without CRITICAL THINKING. They won't discipline or spank their unruly children because some "touchy feely" expert said it would hurt their self-esteem. Read the Bible. The go into debt with HELOC's believing they are just cashing in their profits. They fail to plan and secure their career with proper skills / training. They just show up at work everyday assuming their job will always be there; they don't make themselves valuable and indispensible to their employer or customers. They don't plan for the future (including saving money) because they are not students of history and have no clue what is going on around them. So, by extension, they don't watch or care about the news until the price of a 6-pack is too high.
Summary: Camp 1 takes personal responsibility for their LIVES. Camp 2 trusts (or even demands) that other people run their lives for them.
Your a "conputer engineer" and you have to hit the "enter" button after every sentence?
Butch said…
(Reply) First, you must establish whether or not you accept my premise that the 401(k)/IRA is a sheeple pen designed to shear you of your hard earned money.
Absolutely agree. When this plan was first announced many years ago I told my wife we will NOT invest a dime in another government sponsored saving scheme designed to bail out social security when it goes insolvent. Today we own a paid off custom house on 3 acres in the country, debt free and have $200K plus in CD’s at 5.25 % interest. And the best part, our core housing cost (prop tax + insurance) is $466 month which is 1/3 the cost of a one bedroom apartment in our locality. No thank you Mr. Government, I will decide how to invest my disposable income.
"Anonymous said...
Father and son chat:
Son: Hey dad, where does milk come from?
Dad: The store of course, boy.
(BTW - dad has 3 advanced degrees and 100 billion in the bank)"
A dimwit politician from Philly made almost that same statement some years ago to justify voting against a farm support bill. Crops had been particularly bad that year. "Store shelves are full, I don't see a problem".
Didn't have a clue. Definitely a "have-not".
yes-it's the land of "have debt" and "have no debt"
Between you and borkafatty you make me feel like a "HAVE NOT" with all your expertise logic.
Gag me.
---------------
Screw you asshole I have not said a thing...
you want to Gag on something.
I never claimed to be an expert at anything..loggin shit for brains so we can have a real conversation, otherwise you are useless to me and I could not be bothered.
I like to think I bring a pretty good perspective here at HP. Lot of great links that I know you all read. But hey what ever "Yawn"
Misery loves company.
Come on down for a can of woop ass!!
Ya ok tuff guy, Giddings TX steer and queer country. You ain't got horns so which one are ya.
dickafatty seems to have a chip on his shoulder this morning. I thought fat people are supposed to be jovial and even smart. I guess I was wrong.
alright - alright you guys got me figured out - I am unemployed - yes a "have not" - my wife left me two weeks ago because I took out a HELOC to buy an ATV to hunt with...I am a recovering addict and alcoholic too...I have been off meth for two weeks - hey I just need some friends and support.
Ok sorry for the long winded note.
Now F#$k Off A$$ wipe.
oneclickplus,
with resepct to the 401k and future tax rates, the lack of assurance in your tax rate being the same or lower when you retire is equivalent to the assurance that the government will not somehow tax after-tax savings in the future.
in other words, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't in my book.
Keith, who blames immigrants, gays, or minorities for their problems? the haves...or the have-nots?
note "belief in god" is not a characteristic owned exclusively by the haves or the have nots
however, not believing in basic scientific theory like big bang and evolution, or believing the republican party is the party of god, well, if you're in that boat, you're in my 'have-not' class
because you're an idiot
This comment by Richard was priceless:
>>Yes Gary on this we agree:
"but that there are two very obvious mentalities prevailing "
1) 99.9 percent brain dead
2) those who critically think - or the remaining .01%<<
Maybe Richard wants to bust out his Fisher Price calculator and try that again??
Hey Richard, which group do you put yourself in: Group 1, Group 2, or the remaining .09%?
Yeah Richard - do the math bro - you are looking like a real idiot here.
opps
my bad
move the dot thing to the left...or right??
(toke off glass pipe here)
ok left.
Now F!$K Off A$$ Wipe.
thanks for the clarification on the "God" issue.
i believe we are in the same camp and i apologize for calling you a tool.
its right bro.
I don't know where you people get your stats.
WW2 killed 100,000,000 people.
30,000,000 were Russians. Some of the deaths blamed on Stalin were side effects of the German Agression against Russia so blame Adolf for those too.
Adolf Hitler is the clear winner hands down.
Your distinction between "haves" and "have nots" is false.
I can only say that, because my wife and I fit nicely into NEITHER of those categories!
I am a computer programmer (formerly a PC tech), self-taught. I do not have a degree, but I did attend a very intellectually demanding Seminary for 3 1/2 years, where I received a solid liberal arts education. I am decent at math, history, literature, geography, science, English, etc. and I spend my free time reading -- either books, or alternative news sites and analyzing the world situation. I abhor (is there a stronger word?) Fox News and all mainstream media. You could say I am intellectually curious. I do not own a TV, nor do I watch any movies in any form. When I'm not working, I'm either running my side business (selling Gregorian chant CDs) or working in my large garden. I am never bored.
When I have time, I write poetry (verse). I enjoy singing as well as listening to good music: classical, Gregorian chant, and other music with a good melody and lyrics. I certainly appreciate art.
By reading only the important news articles, I am well aware of important current events. I am a web developer working from home, so I don't have a 401K -- but I wouldn't contribute to one anyhow. The stock market is going to tank. My wife and I always spend less than I make (she's a stay-at-home mom, our 7-month-old is her new job). We did buy a house right away -- a humble 4-bedroom in a small town, which was only $80K. I say bought because we have it 90% paid off. Both our cars -- the (older, 35 MPG) Saturn and the (bought new, 2001) family car are both paid off.
My wife is a CPA, but she has chosen the joys of motherhood over a career. Neither of us could be happier. We know there are more important things than money. But we don't need any more money, because our house is almost paid off and we have no credit card debt. As for "exotic mortgages", we both shake our heads (even now) at the advertisements on Weather.com for a "500K mortgage for $1798 a month!".
What money we save is kept in a savings account -- the stock market is NOT easy money, especially now. But we both know that Social Security is NOT going to be there -- our best bet is to pay off our house very early, and then save up cash for many years.
We are neither Republican, nor Democrat. Both parties are the same. If pressed for a political affiliation, I would answer, "Catholic".
Wal-mart makes its profit off the backs of Chinese slaves, and underpaid American workers, which we all pay for in the end because those workers end up on public assistance (especially for health care).
As far as shopping, we only buy necessities. Shopping is NOT a hobby -- unless you want to be deep in credit card debt!
We are devout Catholics, and are aware of the huge deficiencies in the "theory" of Evolution. In the last several decades, many scientists have been able to look closer than ever before into the tenets of Evolution (via DNA research, etc.) and they realize that the theory has massive holes in it, at best. Some say the Theory of Evolution is untenable. We believe God created the earth in six days.
We are content, happy, have no psychological issues, have no need of drugs, and our consciences are at peace. But neither of us can take credit for discovering this way of life -- we got the blueprint from the Catholic Church. We are both eternally grateful.
But WHAT CATEGORY do my wife and I fit into?
Richtard, You made A fool of yourself today, now go away!
note it's almost impossible to fit perfectly into the have or have-not classification. these are generalizations obviously
but people are closer to one than they are to the other
which are you?
C'mon Keith, what is with the god bashing?
I know evolution, calculus etc. But science has problems answering all the questions in this world. Tools can measure with only so much accuracy.
Not all critical thinkers are athiests. Lets stop lumping everyone toghether into groups with false assumptions.
Though, I do agree there is a large welfare class in this society that soon might not get the check in the mail because : the country is broke! They might want to start beleiving in god because it might be all they will have in the future.
I'm 57 and have been "around the track" a few times. I grew up in an era when there was "right" and "wrong". Not that these definitions were definitive or didn't require some interpretation, but nevertheless had good guide lines by which to live. In general, for instance, "thou shalt not kill" is a pretty good one most of the time. "Thou shalt not steal" is also a pretty generally sound one. We can all immediately think of exceptions to these... even moral exceptions, but when its all said and done accepting these at face value most of the time is hardly a stupid or "far right religiously fanatical thing." Most people, I find, are neither far left or far right. The ones who believe in God in literal ways who I know do not spend all their time trying to cram their beliefs down your throat. Same for most on the left.
But the "noisy" ones are the dangerous ones, the Cindy Shehans and the Farakhans. And most of the dangerous ones are far left not far right. You can generally turn off the Bible thumpers.
But organizations like the ACLU have morphed into organizations that defend Pedaphile groups, and wish to ban the word "God" from our currency, constitution, buildings, etc. They want to claim that giving underage children the right to have sex with adults is one of their inviolable 1st amendment rights. And on and on.
Picking up on a theme here?
The total collapse of common sense or moral guidelines.
The far left is by far more dangerous than the far right. The far left is much more akin to fuzzy Greenspan speak than anything understandable.
Hear the one about the teacher in FL who was called whore and bitch and had things thrown at her by her class. She was white. When she complained to the principal, he told her they were just expressing their culture and it was their right.
Too many "unchecked rights or freedoms" is what one calls chaos.
And that's the direction we seem to be headed.
Catch the one about Katie Couric on the CBS evening news? In their "free speech" segement, the father of one of the kids murdered in the Columbine school shootings was going to explain his view on how school shootings were escalating more and more. Katie was quick to warn her largely left audience that what he was going to say they might find "repugnant" since he was talking about moral values. Of course Katie doesn't need moral values because she can pay for 24 hour a day gun toting body guards for herself and her kids.
Keith, I agree with the essence of your theme.
My father, a deeply flawed man, died poor (and in major debt) because he bought into BS ideas and didn't divorce my mom, despite never getting along, because of religion. All and all, they couldn't manage anything and I'd left home at the ripe young age of 17 because they were completely incorrigible.
Well, two decades later, I'm earning a solid six figure income, have a six figure rainy day (or decade) fund, contribute only to my self-administered IRA which is invested in forex, intl bonds, etc, and rent in an area where rent is 40% of the typical mortage (ala bubble zone town). My immediate family could never have achieved the above because they'd bought into the prior decades' Faux News mentality and got into real estate in Texas during the oil bust of the mid 80s and other stupid things in the name of god and country.
love the post, keith.
my sister and me are both "haves". she is a doctor, me a software engineer. we each have household incomes above 200K. we're both EXTREMELY liberal. we both think W is a monkey. we both watch MSNBC (keith O. rules). we're both recovering catholics. here is the twist. she lives in one of my rentals, she spends every penny of her income, and she has no savings other than a small IRA. she likes shoes, a lot. her thought on debt and money management is that you can't take it with you, and who cares about debt when you're dead. her net worth is around -50K, mine is +1.1M. so, even the "haves" differ on their financial view of your life and goals. she just got back from a week in la jolla, and i am sure she added 3K to her debt. we're off to hawaii for a week and then to berlin and athens, all already paid for. so two similar people with completely different views on money. and lastly, our dad, who is 68 just declared bankruptcy with over 100K of credit card debt and only living off of SS. oh, and he watches FOX 24/7. how f'd is that?
..."our dad, who is 68 just declared bankruptcy with over 100K of credit card debt and only living off of SS. oh, and he watches FOX 24/7. how f'd is that?"
Hey, I'm the 4:21:50PM Anon, and I know exactly what that's about except that my dad didn't file Ch7 and kept spending (borrowed from just about everyone) till his heart failed.
The justification is always...'for God and Country' though I can't really see a logical connection there.
"my sister and me are both "haves". she is a doctor, me a software engineer."
Too funny - deluded individuals -
we are so screwed.
If "haves" are so smart, how the hell do you explain Ted Turner?
"C'mon Keith, what is with the god bashing?"
Anyone hear me bashing god? If you are, you're hearing voices in your own little heads
What I'm bashing is ignorance.
Only an ignorant person in my book doesn't understand evolution. There's a nice exhibit right now at the science museum down the street if you'd like to take a gander. The museum of science and industry in chicago does a nice job of it too. There's also tens of thousands of books you could read, or heck, forget all that, just walk outside and look at a bird.
Then there's the big bang. Again, tons of books, scientific journals, articles, nobel prize winners, take your pick.
But alas, for some weird reason, people choose to be ignorant. Heck, look at Richard.
But it's ignorance that has now moved from the "oh, isn't that cute" stage, to the "wow, the neighbor just lost their home and went bankrupt" stage.
Ignorance, in the case of the housing bubble, is not bliss. It's disaster.
dickafatty seems to have a chip on his shoulder this morning. I thought fat people are supposed to be jovial and even smart. I guess I was wrong.
----------
Ehh! I'll let that one go not in the mood for a bitch match..besides that I always make you look like a fool, so Y feed the fire...Yawn! tell the wife I said hello.
Hey anon 10/11/06 3:51:33 You freakin idiot....... Stalin killed an estimated SIXTY MILLION WHITE RUSSIANS BEFORE AND AFTER THE WAR THROUGH WHAT HAS BECOME KNOWN AS THE JEW COMMUNIST PURGES OF WHITE RUSSIA! Try asking some actual Russians sometime. A lot of supposed "nazi atrocoties" have been deicovered to in fact be jew communist purges. You know, like the last one here just recently in the news in Poland.
Keith makes the same mistake as the MSM, he tries to look at the situation in terms of red states vs. blue states. The real defining lines are drawn between people who see our individual rights coming from documents, laws and contracts, and those who believe in unalienable rights granted to us by a higher power, outside the realm of Man.
The humanists talk a good line, but when you pin them down they all finally admit that in their world view human rights are simply a convenience granted by other, fallible, men. That is why they stood by and allowed a judge to order the starvation a severly handicapped woman. That is why they object to any limits on abortion, and that is why they cannot allow any hint or religion in public schools or meeting places. If neccessary, they would kill millions of innocent people to preserve the State, and then justify their immoral acts with science and logic. Just like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, they minimize the importance of the individual in favor of group-rights and conformance to edicts of the State.
Those red state "rubes" that Keith bemoans, believe in unalienable rights and a morality not based on some accounting ledger. They understand that men have failings and that the State is a neccessary evil. Most are not threatened by religious expression. They understand that moral behaviour stems from shared values, not diversity, and that only individuals have rights before the State.
You have to ask what makes money valuable, and why will people trade tangible goods for it? During a financial crisis, its quite possible that the value of fiat money will be destroyed. The functioning of advanced societies depends on the enforcement of civil and property rights. If there isn't the ability to store wealth, and no guarantee that you'll see the product of capital investment, industrial societies will fail.
I suspect that middle class people who have been financially responsible will have a tough time as the assets that they built up are confiscated by the government. The wealthy individuals will be OK if they can escape the US and go to where they've stashed some of their assets.
The Bible 10 Commandments
ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
------------------
And the real 2006 Commandments
ONE: I am George Bush the one true Ruler.
TWO: Tho shall carve houses made of stone to sell to the sheep. ( At a premium of course)
THREE: Thou shall not call a Plasma tv a Television (It is a home Appliance. )
FOUR: tho shall Remember Its Christmas time spend spend spend.
FIVE: Hey you (mom) spin one of your green ones dads all out..(thanks ma your the best)
SIX: tho shall keep a loaded gun under thy bed at all times.
SEVEN: Tho shall sleep with all the Anonymouses wifes as much as possible.
EIGHT: Tho shall hold up thy local 7/11 during working hours.
NINE: Tho shall sell thy house cheaper than the guy next door.
TEN: you shall sleep with the neighbors wife, while all the animals watch, then post it on yourtube.
The reason that many people have a strong negative attitude towards evolution is that they think it contradicts their religious beliefs. Theories about the behavior of electromagnetic radiation don't stir up the same religious fervor because they don't appear to contradict religious teachings. www.venganza.org has an interesting alternative creation theory if you are interested in this kind of thing.
A similar manner of thinking, or non-thinking, can be seen with the housing bubble. Perhaps some people only look at the monthly payment rather than figuring out how much that loan is going to cost them. The math involved with calculating costs and interest is straightforward enough that any numerate person should be able to figure out how much a fixed rate mortgage is going to cost. Calculating the cost of an ARM with various interest rates should surely be done by anyone considering such a loan.
Muhammed, It is a fact that most Americans only look at the payment when buying a house.... Nothing else matters to them, I've seen it too many times.
By the way, supposing you're a real arab, do you believe the jews are the children of satan? I'm not so sure, but I gotta admit.... It makes a lot of sense.
Wrong thread - repost
Kieth, I think your description of the "haves" is spot-on, however your description of the "have-nots" is extremely biased and flat wrong.
Look at California - probably the biggest bubble area - from San Fran/Marin down to San Diego, this is a Starbucks drinking Blue state. The worst FB's are going to be the poor, stupid, uneducated minorities (democrats) who could only afford the option ARM. And the hollywood/image is everything/live for today types? Probably not big fans of the FOX. I'm going to guess that the flyover states are going to be just fine in the upcoming crash. They'll hurt if they lose their jobs, but they're not the ones buying Benz's on HELOC's to impress the neighbors.
BTW, for a guy so tuned into the REIC as giant colluding and manipulating force, it seems ironic that you demonize the ONE conservative CABLE news channel among a sea of overwhelming Liberally biased channels? Is that one, lone, dissenting view that much of a threat?
Years ago I worked for Gynboree Corp and had a 401k plan. The 401K had only 5 funds to choose from, and all of them were the worst performing funds compared to the other ones that were not offered in the Gymboree employee plan. The stock options were a joke, the price granted was lower than the current price, and the black out times made it impossible to sell or make anything on the transaction.
If I had to do it again, I would not contribute as much as I did to the 401K, and I would never again purchase company stock inside a plan for as long as I live.
Can anyone tell I had a bad experience with 401Ks?
> Oneclickplus said:
I tend to divide people up into two groups as well. The dividing line is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. On the one side is the American who takes personal responsibility for his/her actions, words, family, child rearing, religion, investments, savings, housing, career, etc. In other words, everything.
------------------------------
Amen.
Anyone who thinks the government SHOULD or WILL take care of them is a sap .... mos definitely a "Have Not". Who do you suppose makes up that crowd?
IRA and Retirement Planning Mistakes: Don't Fall Victim to Bad IRA and Retirement Plan Advice.
Clint Eastwood playing "Dirty Harry" warns, "A man's got to know his limitations." This advice is particularly appropriate for financial planners and advisors who are giving advice beyond their expertise. Though I am biased because I have over 27 years of technical expertise in the IRA and retirement plan area, the lack of knowledge in this area can cost clients hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars.
http://tinyurl.com/fvoru
Interesting Read here for the soon to be Retirees.
"Can anyone tell I had a bad experience with 401Ks?"
Shares of Lucent Technologies (LU) hit $85 based on lies approved and promoted by CEO Rich McGinn. My wife had plenty-o-shares of LU in her 401K. Rich McGinn then announced it was all bogus and resigned. Poof! a huge haircut to shareholders, and then a long slide down to $3.00.
Unlike Ken Lay and Dennis Kozlowski, McGinn now sails the world in his yacht, even though he was responsible for the loss of billions of dollars in shareholder equity.
"The humanists talk a good line, but when you pin them down they all finally admit that in their world view human rights are simply a convenience granted by other, fallible, men."
So, in contrast, you want the pious fellows who executed witches in Salem MA, back in the 1690s, to be deciding what's fair and what's not?
Did you know that Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were Rosicrucians ( an old mystery school) and not born agains? And how about Emerson and the transcedentalists?
hebrew house lender said...
Muhammed, It is a fact that most Americans only look at the payment when buying a house.... Nothing else matters to them, I've seen it too many times.
By the way, supposing you're a real arab, do you believe the jews are the children of satan? I'm not so sure, but I gotta admit.... It makes a lot of sense.
Well, I'm not a real arab, but I play one on the net - if you go to the link, you'll see why this alias is appropriate for reporting on the housing bubble.
Blaming a racial group for problems is totally irrational, but altogether too common. It's emotionally easier to blame the Jews/Chinese/Banks/Arabs than to attribute things to chance or the ignorance/stupidity/bad luck of the blamer. So, in short, no, the Jews are not the children of satan.
When the housing collapse occurs and people can't use ditech to leach the equity out of their houses and they get booted out on the street, I'm sure they'll find someone to blame, if not the Jews.
You sometimes disappoint me, Keith. This talk of haves & have-nots sounds very classist, panders to stereotypes and is not very nice. I have seen "haves" get themselves in very deep due to their propensity to keep up with the Joneses while the "have-nots", who may not have lots of money or investments, pay their bills on time and live within their means.
I personally KNOW several "haves" (and I'm talking six-figure people and more) who lived like kings and then declared bankruptcy. On the other hand, I have lower income, even uneducated, friends who are very responsible people and manage their money wisely.
Personally, I have 3 years current salary in the bank, 4 more years in retirement, live simply, don't chase wealth, have no debt, live pretty well, went to grad school, work at a university but still enjoy America's Next Top Model. Where do I fit in?
Sometimes you sound like a decent sort and other times you strike me as an arrogant republican asshole.
You people who like to think you're the self-sufficient types while sneering at the "people who want things handed to them" are no doubt the privledged class, generally white and male. As one myself I KNOW it's almost impossible for us to lose. The game is skewed in our favor. Always has been.
And you conveniently dismiss all the societal perks that were put in place years before you were born. You're ingrateful, spoiled assholes.
I always find it funny how, almost without fail, when one of you privledged characters suffers a downturn you scream like stuck pigs. Your sense of entitlement is so ingrained, your sense of superiority so inflated, you can't deal when things don't go your way. When life hands you lemons you blame others for your shortcomings and DEMAND that someone give you one of those handouts you so maligned when you were oblivious to the life challenges of others.
It's really quite disgusting.
Borkafatty and richard, You make me want to vomit!
To the self loathing, bong toking, cumb-ay-ah singing, pathetic white patriotard anon 10/11/06 9:49:34 above,
Uhhh, You ever hear of racial quota's? Affirmative action? Ethnic quota's in university? I've got news for you, THE ODDS ARE STACKED, AND HAVE BEEN STACKED AGAINST WHITES FOR A LONG, LONG TIME HERE IN AMERICA. Yet some how we keep coming out on top in disproportionate numbers. Please......... Do the white gene pool a favor and get cancer...soon.
Muhammed, Wow.... Went to the link. Looks like that M.S.S. dude lied to his people nearly as much as our government.
Also, I was gambling on you being an arab, it was a baited question, ask an arab sometime and you'll see.
"Please......... Do the white gene pool a favor and get cancer...soon."
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"So, in contrast, you want the pious fellows who executed witches in Salem MA, back in the 1690s, to be deciding what's fair and what's not?
Did you know that Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were Rosicrucians ( an old mystery school) and not born agains? And how about Emerson and the transcedentalists?"
Who said anything about "born agains"? I was talking about people who believe in a power greater than that of Man. Many of the founders were far removed from traditional Christianity, some were deists, but every one of them understood the only true font of unalienable rights.
Look at Ghandi and Martin Luther King. They followed two distinctly different religions yet both men understood that human rights are not found in the desk drawer of a government bureaucrat.
And no, I don't want "pious fellows who executed witches in Salem MA, back in the 1690s, to be deciding what's fair and what's not". But if we let a bureaucrat decide issues of morality how is that any better? You humanists are simply delusional if you think it will be "different" this time. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and the 150 million deaths they caused are evidence for my opinion. What's yours Mr. Egalitarian Humanist?
Voices in my head? Huh?
"They don't understand the simple concepts of evolution and the big bang, or if they do they don't believe them because god and his proxies told them it's all bunk."
I think the false assumption is that all Christians are fundamentalists -- a literal interpretation. This might be true in the vast majority of Islam but not so in christianity.
It could be the case some christians might believe god tweaked the gene that caused the evolution. Possibly even created the island which isolated a creature which stopped its evolution.
Its likely we'll never know what came before the big bang or that there might be a hobbit in every particle. Tools are only so accurate.
I understand the concepts and a proxy does not tell me how to think. Talk about assumptions...
I have to admit there has been a great effort in the msm to portray christians as either fundamentalists and or sex offenders.
Wonder how many Amish have adjustable loans and are in debt up to their eyeballs?
Anon 12:04:29, I don't think you can quite compare Ghandi to the communist, prostitute hiring, woman beating, martin luther king. He was a completely disqusting individual who cared nothing about America.
Keith,
You're assuming that the haves got where they are because they're educated, love art (What a joke. Personally, I think they're just better at pretending), save for the future, etc..
But the fact is that a lot (and in increasing number, approaching a majority) of the haves inherited their wealth or had a head start with family help.
Funny, because those I know who are in trouble b/c of real estate mania are all "have"s. Remember, real estate speculation, until very recently (before ARM became popular), was a game for people with money.
Those "have not"s I know haven't (or couldn't) get in the game.
hebrew house lender said...
Muhammed, Wow.... Went to the link. Looks like that M.S.S. dude lied to his people nearly as much as our government.
Also, I was gambling on you being an arab, it was a baited question, ask an arab sometime and you'll see.
Heh - well, I'm not going to ask the question to any arabs, I don't really need to guess how they'll respond. MSS was certainly misleading his viewers (or rather, trying to) but considering the circumstances, he only rates 0.8 Liar-eahs in the media whore category.
An anonymous poster made the point that the "white male privledged class" has significant advantages over certain other racial groups. There may be some truth in this; Many members of this demographic group do what they can to provide their children with a stable upbringing and a solid education so they will be better equipped to deal with the business world. Social groups that have a strong family bond and give high value to education and hard work tend to do well. Of particular interest are the Japanese-Americans. During WWII, their assets were confiscated. The next generation were poor, but the following generation has done much better.
The Jews have had their share of bashing and setbacks too. They typically don't have an "entitled welfare culture" so they have a better chance to rise to the top.
If you wish to get a solid feel for the ambition of individuals to obtain a higher education, it is worthwhile to do a google search for "thesis titles UC Berkeley". Note the names for projects covering hard sciences such as physics or math, and those for other diciplines such as "social work".
I digress, however. For a final parting comment, "The Americans are not in Baghdad! There is no housing bubble!" :D
"Moe" al-Sahaf
Anonymous said...
Keith,
You're assuming that the haves got where they are because they're educated, love art (What a joke. Personally, I think they're just better at pretending), save for the future, etc..
But the fact is that a lot (and in increasing number, approaching a majority) of the haves inherited their wealth or had a head start with family help.
And what would you expect people with wealth to do? Wouldn't you want your kids to inherit your wealth? Wouldn't you work to protect your wealth for future generations?
The real head start comes from being loved and cared for from the beginning, learning to think, and having a degree of ambition. With a bit of capital and a sharp mind, it's possible to do quite well without relying on any kind of inheritance.
We'll see if the saving part was worth it. FYI, wealthy people understand what happens when debtor nations start to have financial problems. The US will probably implement more stringent capital controls, but its already too late. Wealthy people here will lose millions, but at least they'll still have millions somewhere else.
==Moe.
To the anon above,
"And what would you expect people with wealth to do? Wouldn't you want your kids to inherit your wealth? Wouldn't you work to protect your wealth for future generations?"
My answers:
-I don't expect anything from people with wealth. What's the point?
-No. I believe in even playing field, not in widening gap with each successive generation.
-No. Not for future generations. Their achieving and "getting there" THEMSELVES is most of the fun to be had. Why ruin it for them? I think trust fund is the most counter-productive thing that drives people into ennui.
"The real head start comes from being loved.... With a bit of capital and a sharp mind, it's possible to do quite well without relying on any kind of inheritance."
AGREED! At the same time, we all know that "a bit of capital" can make a big difference. THAT was my point.
Well, I don't think you'll ever see a level playing field as long as it is possible to transfer wealth. Money is much like fire - much easier if you have access to one already.
THE GOVERNMENT BAILOUT OF REAL ESTATE AFTER A 90% devaluation, blamed on bankers taking a % OF THE BAILOUT MONEY, AND BANKERS PRICE FIXINGS, WILL BE A HANDOUT
To poor, mistreated Mr. Affirmative-action-ruined my life:
The number of people ever let in to colleges and universities due to race is dwarfed by the number of wealthy white people let in because they had a family member attend, even if they're a dim bulb. Like your president for instance.
Affirmative action and diversity goals don't give the job or school place out unless the person is qualified. You people like to pretend they give positions to minorities who aren't qualified. Makes you feel better when you get rejected. Every white guy I've ever known who applies for the police or fire dept and doesn't get in says it's because of minorities. Funny though, you rarely see anything but white cops and firemen.
You spoiled, entitlement-minded, miscreant.
actually the Big Bang Theory is bunk but for scientific not theological reasons :p
Anon 8:32:50, I'm doing quite well actually, and it has nothing to do with my background. You see, some people are given the genetic tools necessary to survive in a white society (even though ours is going to hell in a hand beasket the less white it becomes), while others are given the genetic tools to survive in the jungle. Take either one out of their home, and they don't do so well (as history has clearly shown). Oh, and about those "qualified" affirmative action job recipients... Like that african DEA agent who was diplaying his service pistol to a classroom of kids when he shot himself in the foot? There are countless other cases like this, and I guess you gotta ask...Who decides if they are qualified?
At least we can agree about the president.
>I'm inclined to just cut it back to the minimum that is matched by the company
That's what Suze Orman advises.
"Funny though, you rarely see anything but white cops and firemen."
Where do you live?
BUSH’S SECRET ADVISOR HAS BLOODY PAST
BILDERBERG LUMINARY NOW HAS EAR OF THE PRESIDENT
By Richard Walker
http://www.american freepress. net/html/ bloody_past. html
As more U.S. soldiers die in Iraq, and President Bush tells Americans he will “stay the course” even if his only supporters are his wife and their dog, Barney, reports have come out that Bush is getting advice from a man who knows all about failure.
That man is Henry Kissinger, 88, who served as national security advisor and secretary of state under Richard Nixon and then Gerald Ford.
According to Washington Post editor, Bob Woodward whose new book State of Denial is giving the White House a political headache, Kissinger has been advising Bush behind the scenes for some time during his regular visits to the White House.
The presence of Kissinger within the Bush White House should be no surprise to those who have studied his political career, including his influence on the neo-conservative movement and his membership in the shadowy group known as Bilderberg. His role as advisor to this president may help explain some of the president’s view about the war in Iraq and also some of his language.
One of Kissinger’s favorite sayings is, “the absence of alternatives clears the mind marvelously.” In other words, never seek alternatives, or as he told some of the most notorious regimes during his stint as a national security advisor, “succeed and get the job done quickly.”
According to Woodward, Kissinger thinks he is fighting the war in Vietnam all over again, except that this time he intends to win it. Likewise, Bush has made it clear that he will seek victory in Iraq—whatever that may mean—no matter how many American soldiers lose their lives.
Kissinger has emerged from the background this year to make a series of statements furthering the neo-conservative agenda about rebuilding the Middle East and creating a new world order. He has been especially active in articulating views that dovetail with Israel’s perceptions of how America should develop its Middle East strategy.
Born a German, of Jewish origin, Kissinger has made no secret of his support for Zionism and his close links to Israel. On Sept. 3, he publicly declared that European nations should put aside their differences with the United States because both sides were facing a possible “war of civilizations” that “dwarfed transatlantic mistrust left over from the war in Iraq.”
Mankind was facing a “global catastrophe,” he warned, and that meant America and its allies had to start constructing a “new world order.”
If Kissinger’s past teaches anything about his “new world order” it is that he will get into bed with dictators and the cost of his policies in human lives lost will not mean too much to his sensibilities. A brief examination of his days as national security advisor and secretary of state under Nixon and Ford, confirm his taste for dirty, clandestine wars, as well as an ability to hide the truth from Congress and the American people.
In 1969, he advocated the secret “carpet” bombing of neutral Cambodia that led to the killing of half a million innocent lives and is believed to have contributed to the subsequent rise of the dictator, Pol Pot whose Khmer Rouge militias massacred millions in what became known as “the killing fields.” In 1973, he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace for negotiating a ceasefire with North Vietnam, even though the war in Vietnam continued for another two years.
If Cambodia was an example of his ability to operate in the shadows so was his support for the invasion of East Timor by the corrupt Indonesian regime of General Suharto. Documents have now surfaced showing that a day before the invasion on December 7, 1975, Kissinger told the dictator:
“It is important whatever you do, do succeed quickly.” Kissinger was concerned American public opinion would not favor a brutal or prolonged occupation of East Timor that nine days earlier had declared independence from Portugal. The invasion led to the death of almost a quarter of a million Timorese and a subsequent occupation killed almost a third of the population in what Amnesty International called genocide.
so, is this Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf character done bashing the Schvartzers?
Jackie Mason said...
so, is this Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf character done bashing the Schvartzers?
Yew talkin' te me? I don't need to bash the Schvartzers. I do, however, enjoy tweaking individuals that have an entitled attitude. It's not possible to accurately determine the background of people by their posts, but I'm guessing from the responses, I must have hit a nerve somewhere.
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