So many folks are getting screwed by their builder, in so many ways, there's going to be some crazy-mad folks running around shouting at the top of their lungs, filing lawsuits, and stalking Bob Toll for starters.
Here's the first blog, sent to HP by the founder. Now wait for the lawsuits...
The Truth About Toll Brothers
TOLL BROTHERS (TOL), IS AMERICA’S LARGEST LUXURY HOME BUILDER. HOW DID ROBERT TOLL, CEO COLLECT COMPENSATION IN EXCESS OF $50 MILLION IN 2005 AMIDST A BURSTING HOUSING BUBBLE?
HOW DID HE COLLECT COMPENSATION IN EXCESS OF $42 MILLION IN 2004 AND $28 MILLION IN 2003? THE SOBERING TRUTH ABOUT TOLL BROTHERS...
I am one of many homeowners who paid a premium for a lot that in the end was far from premium.
It appears that Toll makes a practice out of marketing lots as premier, collecting hefty premiums, obtaining signatures on contracts, and years after all is forgotten, removes the single most important characteristic of the lot.
I paid an additional $70,500 for privacy only to be staring out four years later at three monstrous condominium clusters that Toll crammed amidst protected woodlands and wetlands.
How did this happen? I performed my due diligence. I did not rely solely on the promises of Toll’s sales representatives. For over four years, all documents, including the Master Deed, final site plans filed and recorded at the City, and all marketing materials produced by Toll excluded these monstrous clusters and did not delineate that the land was reserved for future expansion.
July 07, 2006
Here they come - the first anti-Toll-Brothers-blog
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33 comments:
What a whiney load of crappola! People naive enough to take statements from a builder or RE agent at face value deserve an educational screwing.
"What a whiney load of crappola! People naive enough to take statements from a builder or RE agent at face value deserve an educational screwing."
Bullshit.
Builders and RE agents who professionally make false and misleading statements resulting in screwing clients deserve an educational felony imprisonment.
Sounds like this guy made a bad choice and now complains. He's not any better than the guy buying a Tahoe and whining when gas is $3/gallon.
The bottom line is never trust builders and don't buy into that line of B.S. that the trees will remain. Some good friends bought a spec house that backed up to a tree line. The next year the tree line was gone and 2-story houses were built backing up to their fence so that the 2nd floor looks straight into their bedroom window. It would piss me off enough that I would fill the back yard up with junk cars.
I'm not a fan of Toll Brothers or any other mega builder. The theory of mass production producing high quality doesn't always translate well with subcontractors and the deeply ingrained problems of the construction industry. Having swung a hammer myself as a (lowest on the totem poll) carpenter for a few months, I saw massive variance in work ethic and quality.
This guy clearly has a massive chip on his shoulder and is now building a legal case. From a quick glance on his site, I can see why he so pissed off. Looks like he's working his way through arbitration first (which he agreed to in his purchase contract).
In the end, I think there's massive room for improvement in residential construction. Not too long ago I toured a Platz Haus, a modular luxury home imported from Germany. Talking to the very happy homeowners, hearing their story, and seeing the quality first hand blew my mind.
This sounds like it is out of control of Toll Bros. This zoning is part of the city/county. Too bad they can change their mind (from bribes or otherwise). I loved the idea that I lived near protected swamp land. I would be attacking the city instead of the homebuilder if that zoning changed.
cavaet emptor!
As osman succiently said, there should be no assumption of quality when buying a subdivision home. Every moron knows what happens to those homes in time.
If there is a chance that houses will be built between your house and the beach, you should assume that it will happen and plan accordingly. If you buy a gas guzzling behemoth, plan to pay $5 gallon. That's what is called PLANNING. There isn't enough of that going on and it does piss me off that that I will end up subsidizing those who lack the planning ability and want a free cake walk (like the guy with the blog).
Some other friends just bought into tract home nirvana. No sheds or above ground pools. Didn't take even two years for the first shed to appear, after which the above ground pools started coming. Now the HOA can't do anything about it and it's all going to hell. My friends are pissed but what should they have expected?
Of course all businesses should be required to obey the law and tell the truth. That is the main issue at hand. However, this story also touches on the socialist thinking that poisons our country. Everyone wants to have an influence on property that belongs to someone else. When my land is re-zoned and its market value is adversely affected, who is going to compensate me? Sorry the socialists win? After all if I paid for full rights to my land that is what I demand. Screw the central planners. Limited zoning laws and respect for property rights is what made this country great.
An interesting article concerning zoning laws can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/ms4q9
I read the full blog and have the following comments:
-These people are idiots. Besides the fact they bought a spec house with an expectation of quality, they are nitpicking every little thing
-Their constant complaints of cleaning are annyoing
-If I was Toll I'd probably deny their claim too
-The suburbanites always think of themselves first. What about the poor farmer who once had a beautiful view of the field behind his house only to find it filled with tract homes bought by people like these yahoos?
It's unfortunate that this kind of stuff happens to people. Best bet is to not close on the house until it's fully built to satisfaction.
Osman, I just checked out that Platz Haus - very cool. Wish more people would think like those people instead of buying a McMansion.
I am on the whiney piece of crap side. There does not appear to be *any* contract guaranteeing the other lots would be clear, just their own wishfull thinking!
Oh, they do "due diligence" and don't find any development permits filed on the property yet when they bought. So what! What's to say that the owner does not eventually want to build when they can? I have this problem with my Neighbors here in which they file for a "hardship" variance to subdivide their lot, then sell off both lots as soon as they get it. They take it to the bank...
You must assume that any, and all parcels that can be built, will be built, esp. by a *BUILDER*. What a concept.
Unless you have actual *DEEDED* restrictions, you are p*ssing in the wind.
Anon,
I want one too.
By the way, It looks like I never posted the pics that we took of the property here in Boulder. I'll get around to that in the next couple of days and drop a note here.
I own a piece of property between two McMansion tracts. All of these houses are poorly-built stucco boxes and many are on what the owners consider as "view" lots. The builders and McMansion owners often asked me what I planned to do with the land, or could I sell them some pitiful chunk of it so their $800K house would have a back yard wider than 25 feet. When I politely refused to consider these offers, I was half-jokingly called a "troublemaker" by a builder and a "selfish SOB" by one particularly nasty lady.
The acreage will serve nicely for a future high-density development, maybe even a luxury, high-rise condo. A few years from now when RE is on the upswing, who knows I might just get the ball rolling. The fine lady who called me a SOB will get the first mailing so she can see what's going up in her "back yard". LOL!
I'll bet these were first time buyers and they closed on this cracker box with a punch list ten pages long. They even believe the subs are going to send their best workers over to take care of warranty complaints!
I hope they learned their lesson about buying a house: Hire a damned ispector BEFORE the closing and don't pay a dime until all the work is complete.
"Limited zoning laws and respect for property rights is what made this country great."
No, limited zoning laws are what made the Sun Belt and suburban sprawl. Good laws in so-called socialist nirvanas like parts of the San Francisco Bay Area, parts of New England, parts of the Pacific Northwest, etc are what made those places distinctive and desirable places to live.
I have worked in construction most of my life. The stories I could tell. People move in to a house with a wooded lot next door.
Well NATURALLY it should remain a wooded lot FOREVER! That’s the way it was when they moved there. Then the bulldozers show one day to clear it for the next home in the development. Now they are calling their lawyers, town council, zoning, threatening the builders, etc., for "disturbing nature" or whatever other self centered nonsense they can think of. All the time forgetting that their house once was a wooded lot TOO!
Moral: If its not yours, IT'S NOT YOURS!!!!
Housing is such a scam, within 5 years people will be looking to Wall Street for ethics, how funny is that?
I'm glad everyone here had time to peruse the Master Deed and site plan to ensure that development in the open area wasn't explicitly excluded. Really, I congratulate all of you on your due diligence.
Oh, wait. You were all just blowing it out your asses.
In fact, Toll Brothers has been successfully sued in jurisdictions around the country for blatant and illegal misrepresentation.
In fact, this story doesn't give enough information to form a judgment.
But hey, it's America. Who cares about facts anymore?
Hey anon 11:51. I will give you a few links for some reading. Urban planning and urban crappy communities are one in the same as is communism and disappointment. What may seem like a great idea sometimes has a very different reality. The old communities in New England were built before modern zoning restrictions and they would not be possible with the zoning laws of today.
http://tinyurl.com/rfh9e
http://tinyurl.com/ms4q9
"In fact, this story doesn't give enough information to form a judgment.
But hey, it's America. Who cares about facts anymore?"
There is enough facts to make a judgement. I do sympathize with the idea of losing a beautiful back yard, but what do you expect? Unless there is a lake or nature conversation, expect it to be improved.
Fact: Builder says trees behind house will remain. Buyer naively believes and pays extra.
Fact: Builder owns land and can do what he/she wants.
Fact: Buyer probably didn't think about the farmer who used to look at trees before and now must look at his house.
Fact: Buyer sounds like a whiney yuppie who wants to prevent someone else from improving their property.
I like the way south PA puts it: Moral: If its not yours, IT'S NOT YOURS!!!!
Check this out! Toll Brothers received approvals this week for two 50-story, 650+ foot tall condo towers in Phoenix, Arizona. Bobby, what are you smoking?
http://phoenix.gov/ZAGENDAC/zitem12.html
This is exactly why I am trying to find a way to BUY the 60 acres next to my property. That is the ONLY way to control what will be done with the land.
Yesterday, the sunset view over that land, which has a nice treeline at the other side, was stunning. Yup, I gotta figure out a way to buy it.
This is about Bob Toll purposefully and premeditatedly jacking up the prices on lots that HE KNOWS won't hold their value because of HIS hidden, illegitimate, future plans. Short of being his right-hand man, a buyer won't know his plans and won't be able to "plan" for this.
This isn't about whining, just like Enron's troubles weren't about a few whiny investors. This is about how Bob Toll manages to make $50 mil/year. He doesn't show his hand like Pulte (building obviously crappy homes and suffering with the reputation that ensues), instead he builds adequate homes and gets his money on felonious land values and crappy land development, thus screwing homeowners AND CITIES alike.
He'd look good in a McPrison.
Ken Lay could've learned a lot from Robert Toll... A heart is a liability. What you don't have can't attack you. Thank God for cancer...
Toll Inc screwed us as well. We supposedly bought a "quality" home. We inspected everything above ground professionally. Even had our wells checked and our septic tanks examined after its first cleaning. What I didn't know was that the select fill that Toll used in the leech field was marginal at best. My husband and I both worked full time. We had no children. Our septic was barely touched. Six years later we saw it start to fail. Of course this was outside the warranty period and Toll thumbed their noses at us. We were told by 3rd party engineers that had we put a real load on the system it would have failed within the warranty period. So far 10% of the neighborhood has had the same problem. They are total scumbags. I can't tell people enough to STAY AWAY FROM TOLL BROTHERS!!!!
HIRE AN INSPECTOR!!
There is no "solution" to living in a Toll home, other than not buying one to begin with. HOWEVER, before your first year is over, HIRE A HOME INSPECTOR to thoroughly inspect the house. You would do this if you were buying a used house, and unfortunately with Toll, it's really no different!
We hired an inspector after living in our Toll monstrosity for 11 months. It cost $250. He wrote up pages of defects (including digital pix of the damaged areas) and found thousands and thousands of dollars worth of repairs (lots of shoddy insulation and electrical work in the attic spaces!).
Again, it's no solution, but all we had to do was make a copy of his report and give it to Toll. After staying on them for OVER 4 YEARS to do most of the repairs, I think we got a lot more work out of Toll than we would have without an inspector.
Finally, if you think your local city inspector is protecting you, guess again. His palms are greased and his focus is on protecting his relationship with Toll Brothers. You're on your own when you buy a Toll home.
my husband and i also brougt from the brothers, and what a disapointment it was, so many issues with the home it is truly disguisting. I truly believe they should not beable to build in any state in this country. They are making money hand over fist from frauduantly misleading their clients. And no matter which way you turn it fraud is fruad, and I do not care how many millions they have, they should be forced to reimburse every contract that the clients were frauded on.
I also feel they should be forced in to living in some of these homes they expect there clients to live in them so why shouldn't they and their off springs.
And they should be forced in to living in the worst of the worst. See if they would but their children and the grandchildren in some of them. Robert Toll does not even live in one of his own. Or did he have his sup contractor build him one. Is there a reason for this.
I should of researched them before we purchased from them. they were forced to buy back two homes. I could imagine what the issues where with them.
Well I wish he best to everyone who is stuck with their toll brothers home or should I say lemons.
Unfortunately it's not a whiney load of crappola. Toll Brothers makes its living lying, deceiving and defrauding its buyers. For all the due diligence you can do, they deliberately mislead you. Case in point: they NEGLECTED to mention a future freeway going past backyards. Not in the public report (that's a law, btw), face to face bald lying by the sales agent (she'll lose her license someday), and systemic covering up of the facts. There's a class action suit forming and TB will someday be rated with Worldcom and Enron - hope Bob likes his money right now, it'll be hard to spend in prison. You cannot take people's money for future promises and renege. That's why we have laws, and they're enforced. That's why lying to customers is illegal -- not buyer beware, naivete or bad decisions -- but deliberate fact manipulation to make a profit is actionable.
I'm on contract with Toll Brothers now and was told their houses are not site-built. It is modular home!! It built off-site first and piece by piece moved to the site. I didn't know until I need to change an option and was told it is too late even though the permit has been applied yet. This is horrible. This is over $1M house.
To the person who posted this comment, please e-mail me at Tolltruth@gmail.com...
Unfortunately it's not a whiney load of crappola. Toll Brothers makes its living lying, deceiving and defrauding its buyers. For all the due diligence you can do, they deliberately mislead you. Case in point: they NEGLECTED to mention a future freeway going past backyards. Not in the public report (that's a law, btw), face to face bald lying by the sales agent (she'll lose her license someday), and systemic covering up of the facts. There's a class action suit forming and TB will someday be rated with Worldcom and Enron - hope Bob likes his money right now, it'll be hard to spend in prison. You cannot take people's money for future promises and renege. That's why we have laws, and they're enforced. That's why lying to customers is illegal -- not buyer beware, naivete or bad decisions -- but deliberate fact manipulation to make a profit is actionable.
April 15, 2007 11:00 PM
did anyone hear about the next problem toll brothers may have in the pocono's. In an article in the pocono press for Sunday june 17, 2007 and june 18, 2007. The township beleives that toll brothers might have a problem with 400 housing units. It makes interesting reading. There was also a lawsuit filed in florida against them. Also there was a security fraud case filed against them too.
I guess the cookie is starting to crumble. They say you get what you give. If you screw people, you will eventually be screwed, what goes around comes around.
I am just waiting to see the end result.
I wait patiently to see what is in their faith. For all the horrible things that their customers had to and have to go through.
So I wait patiently and watch and listen.
concerning Toll in the Poconos. Toll has threatened to sue the township if they give the press any further information AND they want to resolve the issue outside of the public eye. They simply want to file amended plans. The next time you hear about this story will be when RICO charges are filed!!
Toll brothers are a deceiving theiving company. They built my home 2 feet below the street level without any reason, screwing up my land and the drainage of rain water. They just wanted to keep my home lower than their model which was a less expensive model. I am now stuck with it and trying to see what remedies I have. The home is only a month old and well in the warranty period. Any suggestions wil be helpful. amathur16@gmail.com
About 4 years ago my Family purchased a Home from Toll Brothers, in Arizona. We have had a lot of problems with the home consisting of construction problems and other problems that have come about. We have had a list 3 pages long for 4 years of things that Toll needs to fix in our home. We were told that all we needed to do was let them know what we needed done and they would help. About 2 years ago after faxing and mailing and calling about our 108 problems needing fixed, Toll sent a handyman who dealt with grout to fix our 3300 square foot slate tile floor that has thousands of cracks, and problems. The man worked for 1/2 hour and said he had no idea that this was going to be a problem that would need an entire crew, he would have to reschedule with a twelve man team. We never heard from him again!!!!
We have faxed and mailed Toll continuously for 4 years, and nothing has been done.
Water leaking problems
Foundation problems
Basically all appliances, and furniture, extras included in model where fakes...
Including a video security system with main components removed.
All electrical included in sale - not one was hooked up or even wired.
Slate floor was sealed around furniture, rugs, and plants.
I could go on and on, and have pictures to back it all up.
We live in Arizona and have major scorpion problems, due to our house not being sealed well. You can stick two fingers underneath our ($6000) glass front entry doors! In the summer because of wetness in our walls we have 2 months of uncontrollable springtails that produce in the millions, driving the kids in our room because the problem resides only on one side of the house.
For only being 5 years old the stairs should not be seperating from the walls, and cracks in every room all over the walls and baseboards seperating by inches from the walls!
Sorry to waste any time but thought maybe some of my info could help or maybe you could give some advice for me of what to do, besides move!! Thanks for letting me vent,
Pictures: (May I remind you this house has only been lived in for four years.
Nails coming out of entry way wall.
Walls cracking around stairway, and separating.
Corner of Master shower, deteriorated.
Baseboard coming apart from wall.
Jacuzzi tub cracking, also tub was installed with pipes running wrong way, drainage does not occur, and have never been able to use the jets, also they grout the slate stone around permanently, so major work would have to be done just to get to the mechanical parts of the tub.
, - The kitchen stove cover was raised up and not set correctly to stovetop.----
-You can easily see the gap, in home tour there was a huge plant hiding this feature!
We complained most windows were not shutting and locking, so they sent out a guy – who instead of fixing the problem, took the window lock out to his truck and filed the lock to fit!!! You can see the unpainted part of lock!!
The house has 3,000 Sqr. Feet of Slate stone, Toll sealed the floor, but failed to seal under rugs, pots, washers, dryers, anything heavy!!
Please let me know of anything we can persue with you and others, in an obvious problem with a MAJOR HOME BUILDER!
Thanks,
CC
Arizona
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