Why are some things so obvious to Ron Paul and most HP'ers, yet so confusing or shocking to others?
If Congress now proceeds to do NOTHING on immigration, then 2008 must be a year where every single incumbent is swept out of office.
Here's Ron Paul:
Border Security and Immigration Reform
The talk must stop. We must secure our borders now. A nation without secure borders is no nation at all. It makes no sense to fight terrorists abroad when our own front door is left unlocked. This is my six point plan:
Physically secure our borders and coastlines. We must do whatever it takes to control entry into our country before we undertake complicated immigration reform proposals.
Enforce visa rules. Immigration officials must track visa holders and deport anyone who overstays their visa or otherwise violates U.S. law. This is especially important when we recall that a number of 9/11 terrorists had expired visas.
No amnesty. Estimates suggest that 10 to 20 million people are in our country illegally. That’s a lot of people to reward for breaking our laws.
No welfare for illegal aliens. Americans have welcomed immigrants who seek opportunity, work hard, and play by the rules. But taxpayers should not pay for illegal immigrants who use hospitals, clinics, schools, roads, and social services.
End birthright citizenship. As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be citizens, the incentive to enter the U.S. illegally will remain strong.
Pass true immigration reform. The current system is incoherent and unfair. But current reform proposals would allow up to 60 million more immigrants into our country, according to the Heritage Foundation. This is insanity.
Legal immigrants from all countries should face the same rules and waiting periods.
June 30, 2007
Now that the stupidity didn't pass, here's Ron Paul on what we really need to do regarding illegal immigration
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28 comments:
Well it's good to see that Ron Paul is just a politician like the rest. Several bulleted points that are either irrelevant to the point or unenforceable.
Well done. With one press release he proved he's a child too.
Secure the borders by any means necessary. How will we do that? build a fence? How about a big frigging wall? Hope we can find some day laborers to build it. Of course they must be porous if we want easy travel.
No amnesty... Wait. Almost no one has proposed that. But since i'm unfamiliar with the strawman fallacy it still sounds good. RAH RAH RAH!
End birthright citizenship. Then only people like me can enjoy the pleasures of citizenship. Except my grandma never got a birth certificate. So i'm fucked.
Enforce Visa's. It sounds good but it's nothing but a restatement of the problem.
Grey haired children are pathetic.
I don't know the legal definition of a citizen and all that comes with it, but the constitution says "people", not citizens, so not recognizing them as a part of the citizen tax payer/federal government system should be assumed.
Paul has said a wall doesn't sound like a good idea to him, but as long as we give money to illegal immigrants by letting them collect social security (which is not a basic human right. Its provided by our fed. government, thanks to our taxes, which illegal immigrants don't pay.), go to public schools for free, and don't hold them to the same payment standards as citizens in hospitals and clinics, they do actually pose a financial threat.
Although, if we were truly a free market society, they would not pose that threat and none of this would matter at all, so I'm pretty interested in that Paul would like to pull government back to it's intended roll of dealing with keeping interstate trade and travel free and open, and national defense.
The flagrant abuse of the US’ birthright citizenship law is one that really frosts me. There was a recent push in the courts to make it illegal to deport the parents of these pseudo-citizens on the grounds that it would deprive the kids of their rights since they would, most likely, be on the same southbound train as their folks.
Despite the obvious money for Halliburton with The Wall and other security measures, the drying up of the modern slave labor pool that would result from any real reform must have the puppet masters upset because it will impact their corporate bottom lines through wage increases. Some of what RP promotes is a bit too far out for me, but on this issue he is spot on.
I can't wait for his Q2 fundraising totals to come out
What about all the Canadians sneaking into the country too.... those crazy Canadians using all our services, and not working.....
Well we are doomed when we have posters like this Lets seel
Kyle said...
Well it's good to see that Ron Paul is just a politician like the rest. Several bulleted points that are either irrelevant to the point or unenforceable.
Which ones are irrelevant or unenforecable? Sez who and by what standard.
Well done. With one press release he proved he's a child too.
Secure the borders by any means necessary. How will we do that? build a fence? How about a big frigging wall? Hope we can find some day laborers to build it. Of course they must be porous if we want easy travel.
Remeber the cold war? Can you recall how western europe was sealed from eastern europe-with ancient echnology. A wall/ Why not in combination with other technology has worked well for israel and russia. Plus you have ports of entry to allow travel and trade. yessh, what a moron you are!
No amnesty... Wait. Almost no one has proposed that. But since i'm unfamiliar with the strawman fallacy it still sounds good. RAH RAH RAH!
Strawman? Here is a definition of amnesty from wiktionary so you do not have to strain to find hard copy--Amnesty--overlooking or forgiving past breaches of law or behavior. How is that a strawman?
End birthright citizenship. Then only people like me can enjoy the pleasures of citizenship. Except my grandma never got a birth certificate. So i'm fucked.
Talking about today not 100 years ago. No trend toward retroactive laws in U.S.--ever notice or read anything on this? Plus you are fucked by being stupid anyway.
Enforce Visa's. It sounds good but it's nothing but a restatement of the problem.
No its not a restatement. Border Control, Birthright citizenship and Visa Enforcement are seperate problems. Perhaps if you knew what other nations do you would realize this is all possible and easy to do with poltical will. but its o.k, by the time you are 80 there will be 80 million children of semi-lieterate immigrants soaking up votes and convincing congress to give them more of your taxes and entitlements, you will eat dogfood if you are lucky.
I think in general HPers are able to put 2+2 together and extrapolate. So they are able to forecast and predict to some extent.
The pro immigrant crowd, however, are like walking tree stumps barely able to prognosticate the need to wipe there ass after they shit.
1. This country already has an overabundance of labor. This is evidenced by THOUSANDS of day laborers standing on street corners across the nation.
2. We're headed into a recession. The rust belt states have a HUGE unemployment problem NOW. Why do US citizens have to compete with illegals for jobs?
3. Illegals are found in every blue collar job. Evidence the constant discovery of illegals working in sensitive areas like military bases and airports.
4. Many places in this country are already overcrowded. In CALIFORNIA it only takes one bad snowpack season and huge metropolitan areas have to start conserving water AND THE PRO IMMIGRANT CROWD WANTS TO DOUBLE THE POPULATION?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my god, the ignorance is astonishing and disheartening.
5. We cannot and MUST NOT be the safety valve for the world. Americans in general have the good sense not to breed like rabbits in a finite world. Let the rest of the world drown in their own numbers.
Here is a good website to educate yourselves concerning the problems we face as a species and as a nation. I expect HPers will check it out but the tree stumps will simply grow some roots.
http://community.livejournal.com/so_very_doomed
I'm getting very sick of hearing about "slave labor". I want to know what constitutes slave labor because the vast majority of the illegal labor in construction are earning decent wages. This is evidenced by seeing them drive big new trucks with 17-20" tires, fancy rims that cost more than my car. The pro immigrant crowd are just stumps with two legs. I guess they work at home and never venture outside or VERY selectively read the news.
I grew up in metro area of Phoenix in a suburb called Sunnyslope. It is NOT Sunnyslope anymore. It is a suburb of Mexico. This should have NEVER happened. And now its going to take a miracle to reverse the process.
The current state of immigration as it stands is unfair to everyone except canadians and mexicans and to a smaller extent most of the rest of south america. I'd like to see that playing field levelled. That will also mean minority ethnic groups = diversity. If minority = mexican that is the opposite of diversity.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.
Reform is needed, but Paul is a pie-in-the-sky idealist. The sense that let HPers see the housing bubble also lets us see the flaws in his thinking. Keith, I understand your frustration with the rest of the pack of clowns, but the more I hear Ron Paul, the more naive he sounds.
As a thought experiment - what if we gave away a trillion dollars to Mexico? We just squandered that much on the oil war.
HPers, there are other threats to our over-consumptive, unsustainable lifestyle. Facile solutions will not solve complex problems.
Keith, unless you will elligible to submit an absentee ballot, how about fewer "vote for Ron Paul" posts? Moving back any time soon?
I don't believe Ron Paul can win the GOP nomination, as Americans especially GOP primary voters are clueless. However I feel he can influence the debate, as he is the only correct GOP proponent of matters HP cares about
That said, funnier things have happened in politics, and he could catch fire like Howard Dean 4 years ago.
Key will be how much $$$ he raises, and how bad Iraq gets
More stupidity from and about Ron Paul. Where's the enforcement and punishment of people who hire illegals? It's not there. That's because Ron Paul is bought and paid for by business, just like every other Republican.
Keith, I tend to agree with you that America is not ready for the likes of Ron Paul.
Of course, who knew the American people would wake up, revolt, and begin fighting illegal immigration just 6 months back?
Though I am seldom hesitant to speak freely in the right crowd, many of my wifes friends and my coworkers can only stomach so much discussion of politcal affairs, getting defensive as if hearty debate might crack their thin partisan veneer.....
I ALWAYS REPEAT THE WORDS OF RALPH NADAR...
DON'T VOTE FOR THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS, - EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE ISSUES AND THE CANDIDATES TRACK RECORD/POSITIONS, FIND SOMEONE YOU LIKE AND BELIEVE IN/WITH, AND VOTE YOUR HEART.
If everyone simply started doing this, things would change. The nice thing is - noone is ever offended by these directions.
Oooh that smell!!! said...
Why are so many folks b*tching and moaning about illegals? Just wait until the investment banks and hedge funds cry to the government for a bailout because of all the toxic CDO crap they hold.
If you're obssessed about one illegal urinating behind your garage, the CDO bailout is going to be the equivalent of 500 illegals urinating in your house!
June 29, 2007 6:43 AM
Right On.
Too many of our congress men and women (both Democratic and Republican) are for cheap labor, and they'll do anything possible to accelerate it within this country.
Physically securing our borders is a waste of tax-payer money and not required if we remove the incentive illegals have for coming here.
We have a bunch of *really* bad apples ruling this country now, so I'm not sure what the solution will be to end this problem.
At this point, I can only see future generations of US citizens living in a real mess of a country.
Guy Daley said...
I think in general HPers are able to put 2+2 together and extrapolate. So they are able to forecast and predict to some extent.
The pro immigrant crowd, however, are like walking tree stumps barely able to prognosticate the need to wipe there ass after they shit.
1. This country already has an overabundance of labor. This is evidenced by THOUSANDS of day laborers standing on street corners across the nation.
2. We're headed into a recession. The rust belt states have a HUGE unemployment problem NOW. Why do US citizens have to compete with illegals for jobs?
3. Illegals are found in every blue collar job. Evidence the constant discovery of illegals working in sensitive areas like military bases and airports.
4. Many places in this country are already overcrowded. In CALIFORNIA it only takes one bad snowpack season and huge metropolitan areas have to start conserving water AND THE PRO IMMIGRANT CROWD WANTS TO DOUBLE THE POPULATION?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my god, the ignorance is astonishing and disheartening.
5. We cannot and MUST NOT be the safety valve for the world. Americans in general have the good sense not to breed like rabbits in a finite world. Let the rest of the world drown in their own numbers.
Here is a good website to educate yourselves concerning the problems we face as a species and as a nation. I expect HPers will check it out but the tree stumps will simply grow some roots.
http://community.livejournal.com/so_very_doomed
I'm getting very sick of hearing about "slave labor". I want to know what constitutes slave labor because the vast majority of the illegal labor in construction are earning decent wages. This is evidenced by seeing them drive big new trucks with 17-20" tires, fancy rims that cost more than my car. The pro immigrant crowd are just stumps with two legs. I guess they work at home and never venture outside or VERY selectively read the news.
I grew up in metro area of Phoenix in a suburb called Sunnyslope. It is NOT Sunnyslope anymore. It is a suburb of Mexico. This should have NEVER happened. And now its going to take a miracle to reverse the process.
Unfortunatly to my eyes the points of entry remind me of one of the Hardy Boys adventure series book tales storys from my own youth, and the posibility that we may be taking in the neo braves of the tribes, just being taxed off and out of, all that seems to be the reasons the "immigrants", come for, is a hard lesson, along with the fact that their "home" countries failure itself may stem from the fact that they did not take in immigrants the last time they were comming around in large numbers...
Kudos to comment by cow tipping!
It would be nice to have some other immigrants come in besides the Mexicans.I guess the sheeple have forgotten the true meaning of diversity. I'm not a racist - I have Mexican realtives and friends. I just want the system to work fairly for all groups of people.
There is such a dearth of clear-eyed visionaries in all levels of "leadership" in this country that when the rare one does appear, it is like a breath of fresh of air after breathing dense pollution.
Ron Paul....I salute you.
Kyle said:
"Secure the borders by any means necessary. How will we do that? build a fence? How about a big frigging wall? Hope we can find some day laborers to build it. Of course they must be porous if we want easy travel.
No amnesty... Wait. Almost no one has proposed that. But since i'm unfamiliar with the strawman fallacy it still sounds good. RAH RAH RAH!
End birthright citizenship. Then only people like me can enjoy the pleasures of citizenship. Except my grandma never got a birth certificate. So i'm fucked.
Enforce Visa's. It sounds good but it's nothing but a restatement of the problem."
1. Why would we need day laborers to build a wall? There are plenty of American construction workers who would do it. The wall makes it easier to channel border jumpers into paths that are more easily monitered.
2. The senate bill immediately legalized every illegal in the country by giving them a two year grace period to apply for a Z visa while continuing to live and work in the U.S. without penalty. How is that not an amnesty?
3. Birthright citizenship should be extended to those who enter the country legally. Anchor babies are a huge incentive to sneak into the country.
4. Enforcing Visas is not a restatement of the problem. The government has selectively refused to enforce immigration laws against Mexican and Central American illegal immigrants for two decades. Let's try enforcement instead of whining about how difficult it is.
5. Why are you open borders traitors so fixated with maintaining the presence of millions of illegals in this country to the detriment of American workers and taxpayers? Posters like Kyle are either naive globalist, socialist, idealogues or make money off illegal immigration. It's hard to believe anyone with a brain can spew this stupidity. I've lost my patience for idiots like this.
BTW, I'm a Latino of Mexican decent. So stuff it with the "you're a racist" crap.
To all the lying scum who claim that ALL contruction workers are illegal immigrants:
How were houses and buildings built from the 1940's to 1970's when there was a net negative flow of migrants into the USA? I have lived in the northern parts of the country and all the construction workers are white or black. Even in the south I see whites and blacks mowing lawns and doing hard labor. This isn't Southern California where snotty whites are afraid to change their own baby's diaper.
You loser race pimp criminal loving trash lost and will lose again when your fellow criminals in DC try to pass amnesty
How about a cash for illegal immigrant strategy? For every illegal captured and brought in unharmed, the US reimburses the good citizen with $500. That would do a lot to curb illegals.
Why on earth would a canadian want to live in america? Talk about downgrading...sheesh, please canada, buy florida so we can get free healthcare too.
Did you lose your job waiting tables at a Mexican restaurant or where you spreading pine straw?
How are schools paid for? Property taxes. Where are all of these tent cities the illegals live in? They rent, they pay taxes the same as any gringo who rents.
How do you collect social security without a social security number? If the number is fake the government just keeps the money.
Nobody is getting a free ride, more often than not illegals get screwed on wages, are too scared to seek medical attention when they need it, live in squalid conditions and are subject to constant abuse at work and by the police.
You assholes that begrudge people coming here to pick blue berries or pluck chickens need to pull your heads out of your asses. None of your idiotic talking points can stand up to scrutiny.
If we had any sense at all we'd be handing out social security cards at the border and inviting people in to work because in case you haven't noticed social security is an unfunded liability that is about to receive about 70 million new baby boomer's. Guess what, there ain't enough workers to foot the bill at the present rate.
I feel another Ron Paul donation stirring. Common sense plan for our Country considering the national security implications of a wide open border 6 years after 9/11. It's refreshing that one of the candidates actually knows what the Hell the Constitution says regarding our sovereign nation!
By the way, I see that the Religion of Pieces [love to blow themselves and innocents up] has been busy again in Scotland. If incidents like these don't prove that you need secure borders, nothing will.
This whole thing is about the future of Mexican American vote and nothing else.
Mexican Americans are the largest minority and have the highest birth rate of any ethinc group in America. Neither party wants to miss out on this vote. It really is shameless from every angle the way this is going down. Mostly, it's the MSM that needs to be whipped for focusing on the horse race aspect of the Immigration Bill rather than the actual facts: the cost to American taxpayers per unskilled immigrant, the fact that we already have the most liberal immigration policy of any first world nation, and the fact that this really is about Mexicans and not about immigrants as a whole.
But the MSM is way too worried about being labeled racist to ever speak the truth. It's disgraceful.
I'm with Ron on this. However, there's no need to send out the military to guard our borders. If we pass strict laws about employing people without citizenship, create a national identity system, and impose mandatory jail sentences/financial penalties on those that employ illegals - the problem goes away. Nobody in their right mind would hire an illegal alien if they had to worry about going to jail for it. A national identity system, with strict qualifying for citizenship including perhaps fingerprinting is the only way to go.
And for the record, I'm a child of LEGAL immigrants. I also have many relatives who LEGALLY immigrated to this country.
Upsetting the Elite
By Thomas Sowell
With the White House, the leaders of both political parties, and the media all solidly behind the "comprehensive" immigration "reform" bill, how could it be stopped in the Senate, as it was last week?
The people stopped it. That is what democracy is all about.
When members of Congress began to be deluged with angry letters, phone calls, and e-mails from their constituents, they knew the game was over -- and that their careers could be over if they didn't pay attention to what the voters were saying.
This bill was an insult to people's intelligence from start to finish, and the elites are continuing to insult people's intelligence after being defeated.
Fraudulent arguments were followed by fraudulent procedures to rush this bill through the Senate without committee hearings, with restrictions on debate, and with the specifics of this huge bill being sprung on the Senate at the 11th hour, so that senators would be voting on something they barely had time to read.
Among the fraudulent arguments was that illegal immigrants were taking "jobs that Americans won't do." What that really meant was that they were taking low wages that Americans wouldn't take.
Another fraudulent argument was that "We can't find and deport 12 million people."
A much bigger problem than these 12 million people are the tens of millions of additional immigrants who are virtually certain to come in, legally or illegally, if amnesty is extended.
After all, there were only 3 million illegal immigrants the last time an amnesty bill was passed, back in 1986. That's how we got to 12 million.
Research at the Heritage Foundation indicates that tens of millions more people can be expected to come over the border from Mexico in the years ahead unless something is done to stop them.
These tens of millions would include not only Mexicans but also people from other countries entering the United States from Mexico because that border is so poorly guarded. Terrorists would find that very convenient.
The "comprehensive" immigration "reform" bill offered nothing that was likely to stop them.
Former Attorney General Edwin Meese III exposed how little this bill added to border security laws already on the books, in a June 7th column in the Wall Street Journal.
Now that the elitists who wanted to rush the immigration bill through Congress before anyone could examine what was in it have been defeated, they tell us, with great condescension, how foolish we were to leave the problem unsolved.
There is now a continuation of "silent amnesty" they say.
Clever, but no cigar.
There is no inadequacy in our existing laws on border security that the new bill would have remedied. But no law is adequate if it is not enforced.
Non-enforcement of existing laws by the federal government and active sabotage of these laws by state and local officials who forbid the police from reporting illegal aliens to the authorities suggest that existing laws could be effective -- if enforced.
When the new immigration bill gave the government just 24 hours to "investigate" each illegal immigrant before rubber-stamping him into legality, it is clear that there was no serious intention of investigating or enforcing the new law.
You can't get a credit card application approved in 24 hours. But Congress was prepared to fling open the borders to millions of people on the basis of 24-hour investigations.
Talk about investigating illegal immigrants was just window-dressing to fool the gullible public. When the public turned out not to be as gullible as the politicians and other elites thought, the answer has been to insult their intelligence some more.
Now the elites tell us that the protests were generated by conservative talk radio programs, and there are implications that this was due to xenophobia, if not racism.
Anyone who actually listens to conservative talk radio or reads those who opposed this immigration bill will know what a crock that is. Elitists should at least come up with some new smears, instead of repeating the same old tired insults.
I find this debate on immigration a bit scary. Add on top how Slashdot was responding to when Microsoft is planning to open an RD in Vancouver and I am wondering what's happening to America? America is a great country, don't get me wrong, but emotions are mixing up too much here.
1) There needs to be a strong distinguishing of illegal and legal immigrants. I hear way too often on the two being mixed together. They are not the same thing!
2) Influence of Mexicans and Hispanics. Folks I hate to break this to you, but the next mainstream language is not English. Its Hispanic! I have South American family members and South America is going to be one of the major influences in this and next decade. Yes I know Brazil speaks Portuguese, but they are Hispanic and that influence will only grow.
3) Terrorists will get across the border whether its guarded or not. A strong border does not stop terrorists! The UK which is surrounded by water still has terrorism problems. And from what I remember thus far all of them are LEGAL immigrants.
4) I wish people who complain about how the US is the only place suffering and nobody understands them would look at other places. For example I heard one TV commentator who said, "Oh look Europe has no Mexican problem." Well gee duh yeah. But Europe has an African problem. Does America have an African problem? Hmmm, me thinks not...
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