February 28, 2007

Poor people should not live in big houses and drive nice cars. Debt is not wealth. A lesson will be learned.

It absolutely amazes me to read some of the comments from trolls on this blog - mocking people for saving, for being frugal, for clipping coupons, for driving 5-year-old cars, for living within their means, for buying things with cash versus credit.


What's happened to our world where 20 year olds live in McMansions and drive Mercedes cars, while making $50,000 a year? How screwed up are we when people rack up insane amounts of debt in order to look successful, when it's so obvious that the only thing they've been successful with is acquiring debt?

The Great Unwinding is also going to be The Great Smack Your Ass and Wake You Up for Generations X and Y. You work your way up in this life, you don't magically just get there without work and without making a decent living (unless your parents are rich of course).

A generation of spend spend spend, me me me, fake fake fake will now learn learn learn. And the credit crunch will be the catalyst.

Just ask any senior about how their grandkids are carrying on with their big houses, big cars, big TVs, and big debt loads - you're likely to get the same answer, "I don't know how they pay for all of that".

Well, they don't pay for a lot of it.

Never before has credit flowed so freely and never before has so much debt accumulated. Never before has it been easier to buy a house. That is, if you don't mind non-traditional mortgage products where no money down is needed and not only can you avoid paying down the principle (interest-only), but you don't even have to pay all the interest due (pay-option).

Of course, as a long-term plan, this looks like it may not work out so well now that housing prices are falling and subprime lenders are falling even faster.

The younger set has been fearless when it comes to taking on new debt over the last ten years. This is likely to change in the next ten years - all part of the Alan Greenspan legacy.

It's too bad that Lemming suicide is a myth - it would have provided a fine analogy for the headlong rush by youngsters toward the dream of homeownership and sure riches. The trouble is that nontraditional mortgage products, subprime lending, short sales, and foreclosures are no myths.

70 comments:

Anonymous said...

You al-qweefer...so you hate boomers, you hate gen xers, you hate gen yers...is there any group of people you think are a-ok?

Anonymous said...

Remember Grand Dad - some fool (you or your generation) had to lend these young fools the money in the first place...

Marky Mark

keith said...

Gen X and Gen Y who are all flash and all debt are low in my book.

Boomers who spent all Gen X and Gen Y's money, while not saving for their retirement, are low in my book.

And anyone who cares more about themselves vs. their fellow man, and goes about life cheating, stealing, lying and deceiving (i.e. REIC) is low in my book.

Anonymous said...

It absolutely amazes me to read some of the comments from trolls on this blog - mocking people for saving, for being frugal, for clipping coupons, for driving 5-year-old cars, for living within their means, for buying things with cash versus credit.

I suppose I fall into your troll category for daring to question your wisdon.

I mock you not for living within your means or saving. I live within my means and save too, save a lot actually yet also own a big home and drive expensive new cars. Each to his own. If you want to live in a shithole and drive a 20 year car, go for it, you won't hear me mocking that decision.

I do mock you because you are hysterical and see a conspiracy behind every event.

I do mock you for thinking 90% of the world's population will die in 10 years as was posted in another thread.

I do mock you for thinking hyperinflation and a housing crash will occur at once.

I do mock you for believing that George Bush was responsbile for 9/11.

I do mock your for thinking walmart is the reason US has been losing manufacturing jobs for the past 45 years.

I do mock you for thinking fox news is a right wing shill yet the NY Times is balanced.

I do mock you for embracing Obama who is 100% in favor of amnesty (as are all Democrats that you embrace) then in the very next post ranting and raving how illegals are destroying the country.

I mock anyone who posts articles from wnd.com or newsmax.com.

And finally yes I most certainly mock you for cutting coupons. That is simply behavior of either white trash or ghetto residents. You might as well be named Latrell or Cletus as you roll up to the supermarket with the 10 cents off Cheerios coupon in hand. I don't care if you rent or own, that's just pathetic.

marinite said...

The Great Unwinding is also going to be The Great Smack Your Ass and Wake You Up for Generations X and Y

Exactly.

Anonymous said...

lots of slime out there that will pick your pockets in order to maontain a lifestyle.

Anonymous said...

This was written by some old fart who is bitter at his 29 year old boss. I know, I've been there as the 29 year old manager of guys in their 50s. Not fun.

The laziest bunch of SOBs you could imagine. Attitude to no end, always complaining about something. Unwilling to retrain themselves or learn new technologies yet feeling entitled to raises and promotions for doing jack shit 8 hrs a day. Stay past 5 to finish up a project that is already overdue? Fuck no. Not when their daughter's in a high school play tonight.

Contrast that to the 20 soemthings I managed. No attitude, no bullshit. Something needs to be done today? Fuck it I'll work till midnight if needed. Need to learn a new skill, a new piece of software? No problem I'll do it over the weekend, just point me to the online training classes.

Anonymous said...

in my neighborhood i see late 20's and early 30's types buying very nice houses for $1 to $1.3 million and then tear them down and build these obscenly large houses - 10,000 to 12,000 feet. a young doctor down the street with one of those mega houses said our neighborhood was a neighborhood of "cottages" and it was clear he wanted to see that change. now he has five children so maybe he needs 8 bathrooms - but the house next door to him was torn down and a couple in their 40's bought it - no children - they built a 10,000 sq. foot house . replaced a charming 4,000 sq ft 1930's "cottage". anyway the young people doing this are paying cash mostly - from what i am told anyway - so there goes your theory about the young being in debt. some of the biggest houses are built by young internet guys and hedge fund guys. BUT i do wonder, if there is a turn in the economy - and of course there will be one - how they will pay their taxes - which are awful on those new houses -- and the utility bills. even if they have no mortgate to pay. obscene is the word for this. it was obscene when money was being shoved at the super poor who would do nothing to help themselves - and NOW it's obscene when money is being funnelled to these incredibly rich young people.

Anonymous said...

"anyone who cares more about themselves vs. their fellow man, and goes about life cheating, stealing, lying and deceiving (i.e. REIC) is low in my book"

Jeezuz man aside from Mother Teresa who is high in your book? Everyone is out for themselves, it's human nature. Kill or be killed. Only the strong survive and all that. It's more than just cliches, it's how the world works.

You've never lied? You've never deceived? You've never exagrerated? You've never told some girl just what she wanted to hear to get into her pants all the while knowing you didn't mean a word of it?

Get off your high horse and come back down here with the rest of us mortals.

Sheesh.

Anonymous said...

..... "It's too bad that Lemming suicide is a myth - it would have provided a fine analogy for the headlong rush by youngsters toward the dream of homeownership and sure riches."

No, no. It's the perfect analogy. It's just that Alan Greenspan herded and then pushed us over the cliff instead of Walt Disney.

jymkata said...

Debt is Wealth

It's almost Orwellian, isn't it?

All these people with all these pretty things will soon find out how "wealthy" they really are.

How much will they sell their Plasma TV for at their next yard sale?

Anonymous said...

THANK MASTERCARD AND VISA!

Anonymous said...

I think it is obscene that you think it's obscene for someone to spend THEIR money as THEY see fit.

I never understand this attitude from people. Why do you care what I do with MY money? It is none of your business and quite pretentious of you to think you know how to spend MY money better....you must be a Democrat.

And yes 4,000 sq ft is a cottage if surrounded by 10,000 homes, don't be so shocked.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

People who clip coupons who don't need to but do it to make their money go farther are geniuses

Anonymous said...

no they're not they are cheap bastards

Frank said...

There's nothing wrong with a big house and nice car when you're actually able to afford it, but in Scottsdale where I wasted the last few years of my life, I know plenty of people who are making $50,000 a year or even less living in a $500k house and driving a BMW. Which is fine if you make $120,000, but not $50,000.

I find it amusing how people will assume someone is rich by their house and car, but then you look under the surface and find out the person is just another "$30,000 millionaire" as they're known in Scottsdale.

I'm a big fan of hot cars and big luxury houses, but people who get that stuff via deep dept are a joke to me and I can't wait to watch them get dragged through repo, foreclosure, and bankruptcy.

When I lived in N. Scottsdale I saw repo men banging on the neighbors' doors all the time - the same neighbors who would brag about how rich they were! They were just run-of-the-mill realtors or mortgage salesmen or some other type of sales rep, trying to look like a millionaire on their $50,000 income.

Pathetic.

Anonymous said...

Keith said:
"And anyone who cares more about themselves vs. their fellow man...
is low in my book."


ABSOLUTELY!

I want to start throwing down everytime I hear someone declaring: Who cares if houses cost 1M dollars? Who cares if your jobs are being offshored? Who cares if college costs 40K per year and you need 3 degrees to qualify for some BS job any fool could do? Who cares about the middle class?... Because it does not affect them, their house was bought in 2001, their job is safe, and they have gotten all their diplomas hanging on the wall. They care only for what affects them... I see this everyday. I feel like I'm from MARS when fighting for what is right even WHEN IT DOESN'T AFFECT ME. These people are the lowest form of life, and their CHILDREN and GRANDCHILDREN will suffer. A*holes!

Speaking of GenX debtors: I have a friend 36 y.o., him and his wife spend like no tomarrow. They have a house which they bought on the cheap from his folks in 1996, what equity is left I don't know. They are always getting brand new SUVS, maids/ nannies/ caterers/ tutors/ you-name-it, expensive trips/ nightlife, credit cards, the list goes on and on.

Now, guess their occupations? He's a school bus driver and she works as a private grade school teacher! And here's the best (worst) part: they are getting divorced! Living in the DC area and without major reshuffling of their lifestyle, they will be on food stamps in no time. Meanwhile, my girl and I pull in 150K per year and we only spend money on groceries and investments.

Anonymous said...

People who clip coupons are a lot more organized than me and have a lot more time on their hands than I do.

Anonymous said...

Debt wouldn't be so bad if folks could learn to live a life they can afford. Anyone blaiming this blog for there own problems doesn't understand the current state of affairs in the housing industry and are likely victims themselves of over borrowing for a home they can't really afford.

Sorry folks housing is crashing because people got a bit too greedy thinking houses only go up in value. In fact home values increased only because an unnecessary drop in interest rates by AG and a corrupt NAR (who only care about themselves) pushed homes like a pimp.

All markets have cycles and housing is no exception. What goes up must come down. Just don't get left behind holding the bag.

Keep up the great work Keith. HP'ers are and will prevail as this housing ponzi scheme goes down. Then all the good folks who will own homes will be able to pay back there debt in there lifetime.

Crash and burn baby.

Anonymous said...

stock market glitch= frontrunners positioning sheeple for sheering

Anonymous said...

but they make 50,000 a year in inflated dollars, produce nothing, and worth it?

Anonymous said...

Ahhh I see. So a lowly school bus driver must never drive a nice car or live in a nice home. Only the elite making $150K dare do that. I'm sorry, did I just wake up in India where the caste system is still alive and well?

And dude you're not his friend. Friends aren't jealous of each other's new SUV. Friends don't degragde each other's jobs.

My best friend and best man at my wedding whom I've known since we were 10 years old is a construction worker. He didn't go to college, makes $50K give or take. I went to a top tier college, got an MBA and make 3 times what he makes. I would never in a million years think any less of him because he is (and this is the worst part heh heh heh) a lowly construction worker. I also don't keep tabs on his spending habits or credit cards. How the hell do you know what credit cards your friend has? Kinda creepy that you do.

Anonymous said...

My Grandpa had to work for $, how old school.

Anonymous said...

Maybe once they've been barred from the debt machine they'll stop buying the right-wing hypercapitalist Republican propaganda and face reality:

There is indeed a class war, and you, joe six pack, are the target.

The They care more about getting even more filthy rich and helping Chinese get rich than maintaining your standard of living, and then when you bitch they say that it's your all fault.

Example:

This was written by some old fart who is bitter at his 29 year old boss. I know, I've been there as the 29 year old manager of guys in their 50s. Not fun.

The laziest bunch of SOBs you could imagine. Attitude to no end, always complaining about something. Unwilling to retrain themselves or learn new technologies yet feeling entitled to raises and promotions for doing jack shit 8 hrs a day. Stay past 5 to finish up a project that is already overdue? Fuck no. Not when their daughter's in a high school play tonight.

Contrast that to the 20 soemthings I managed. No attitude, no bullshit. Something needs to be done today? Fuck it I'll work till midnight if needed. Need to learn a new skill, a new piece of software? No problem I'll do it over the weekend, just point me to the online training classes.


Working 8-5 M-F is normal, not lazy.

Working till midnight whenever the boss says so is abuse.

Unwillingness to learn new stuff is unreasonable. Unwillingness to work even more on the weekends is reasonable.

Sounds like the manager is the one with the attitude problem and yes, the daughter's play, well at night, AFTER WORK HOURS, is indeed more important than the manager's precious schedule.

You and Ebenezer Scrooge, peas in a pod.

michael said...

Anon 9:45 PM,

"And finally yes I most certainly mock you for cutting coupons. That is simply behavior of either white trash or ghetto residents."

Please put statements like this at the beginning of your post in the future so i do not waste my time reading your drivel.

Anon 10:15 PM,

"You've never lied? You've never deceived? You've never exagrerated?"

i have lied once or twice for selfish reasons. it hurt enough afterward so i do not do it again.

"You've never told some girl just what she wanted to hear to get into her pants all the while knowing you didn't mean a word of it?"

i never have and my son will not. this one statement from you sums up your character. thank you.

Anon 10:31 PM,

" think it is obscene that you think it's obscene for someone to spend THEIR money as THEY see fit."

i think the entire point that keith is trying to make is that it isn't there money. you know, debt, borrow, words like that.

Anonymous said...

11:30:

It is people like you that turned this country from a nation of doers to a nation of crying sacks of shit expecting everything to be handed to them for doing nothing.

You make me sick.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
jymkata said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Gee I guess Orange County, CA isn't doing so well. Can't imagine why!!!

Realty pros pull back
Offices close and merge as a sales slowdown forces the industry to look for cost savings.
By JEFF COLLINS
The Orange County Register
About three years ago, Bob Ralston got the urge to make his own marketing decisions and go after real estate deals wherever he could find them. With a booming housing market and a new broker's license under his belt, he launched Ralston Realty on the Whittier-La Habra line.

Then, things got tougher when the housing market slipped into a deep slump.

At the end of last year, Ralston Realty shut down, and Ralston went back to being a salesman at Century 21 Ambassador in Brea.

"The slowdown made me realize how much I missed being part of a larger group of people," said Ralston, 45, of La Mirada. "To open the door and be the only one in there (made) it hard to be motivated all the time."

The demise of Ralston Realty is just the latest fallout from a downsized housing market that's seen home sales fall 27 percent and commissions decrease about 20 percent last year.

As a result, some real estate offices are closing. Some offices are being combined. And some independents, like Ralston, went back to work for someone else.

It's difficult to pin down just how many closures and consolidations took place, but changes include:

Coldwell Banker closed two offices, shutting down the 53-year-old McGarvey-Clark brokerage in north Fullerton in September and consolidating two north Laguna Beach offices in August.
Prudential California Realty in south Orange County combined five Laguna Beach offices into three: In June, Prudential closed its Three Arch Bay office and moved about 60 agents into its Treasure Island office 1.5 miles to the north. In December, it closed its north Laguna office and moved about a dozen agents into its office in downtown Laguna.
Century 21 Grisham-Joseph in La Mirada bought the Century 21 Ambassador in Brea as part of an expansion in which it bought two brokerages and hired four former brokers who shut down their own offices.
Office mergers and shutdowns have been occurring across the region and throughout the nation as well.

For example, Realogy Corp. – which owns Coldwell Banker, Century 21, ERA and Sotheby's International Realty – announced plans last year to merge or close 100 offices by the end of 2006. Los Angeles County saw the closure of at least six residential brokerages in the spring and summer, from Agoura Hills to Rodeo Drive, the Los Angeles Business Journal reported.

Leaders for both the Coldwell Banker and Prudential chains noted that their recent consolidations here occurred after the companies had acquired offices that were near ones they already owned. Belt-tightening became necessary only when the market slowdown began cutting into company revenues, they said.

"When the market is really good, you overlook the fact that it's not efficient," said Betty Graham, president and chief operating officer for Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage of Greater Los Angeles and Orange County. "But when business goes a little flatter, you have a duty (to be more efficient)."

A down market can be particularly tough on small independents, who lack the big staffs, marketing resources, planning and experience for weathering slowdowns, some said.

"It was all on my shoulders. We had to do it all. We had to sell, coach, train, manage," said Don Jacks, 33, owner of a 10-agent brokerage in La Mirada before closing his office and taking a job managing Century 21 Ambassador in Brea. "You lose momentum when you do it all yourself."

After weathering a 50 percent drop in sales in the past 12 to 18 months, broker Jerry Kelly of Century 21 Casa Linda in Westminster says he may have to refinance rental properties he owns to keep his business going.

"You have to pay your bills whether you have income or not," Kelly said.

Brokers throughout the industry noted that while it's often unpleasant to close an office, consolidations have a positive side, too. Mergers often add new energy to the staffs of both offices, increasing "synergies" that occur when more agents can make deals in hallways or just by having a greater proximity to one another, they said.

"It's not just about cost-cutting," said Bob Chapman, general manager for the 12-office Prudential California franchise in south Orange County. "It's about … selling more houses."

Ralston said he began souring on being the boss of his two-agent office before home sales started to sink. But the slowdown made it even more challenging for the guy who had to do everything from answering the phones and filing to janitorial work.

"My passion is I want to keep selling," Ralston said. "If I can't make it happen on my own, I'm going to make it happen with somebody else."

marinite said...

Unwillingness to learn new stuff is unreasonable. Unwillingness to work even more on the weekends is reasonable.


And don't forget -- the person who posted that inane was comparing a 29-year-old with no children to someone older with children. Talk about a straw-man argument! When that 29-year-old has kids his priorities will change too.

Anonymous said...

Ahoy Ahoy it's off to Walmart I go.

Anonymous said...

I can never forget a woman in her mid 30's or so a few years back that held up the line for 5 minutes while the cashier scanned barcodes on a stack of coupons. Her shopping cart was a little over half full and the total charges were.........21 dollars and some odd cents at Kroger. AWESOME. Out in the parking lot she got into a brand new Ford Taurus Station Wagon.Practical and conservative as hell and NOTHING friggin wrong with that!!!

Anonymous said...

Everything is so black and white on this blog. According to Keith Everyone has to be either a complete moron who spends 150% of their income or is at the other extreme socking away every penny and living like a pauper in an apartment clipping coupons.

There's a middle ground people. Live a comfortable life within your means. Put away 10-15% in savings/investments/retirement plans. Drive a nice car that you know you can afford. Own a home you know you can afford and if there's a little left over at the end of the month after putting away the 10-15%, go splurge on something nice for yourself a weekend at a spa, a new set of golf clubs, whatever again as long as you can afford it.

As for the coupons issue, the time spent looking through a flyer, clipping and using a $1 off coupon is worth more to me than the $1 I save.

Anonymous said...


" think it is obscene that you think it's obscene for someone to spend THEIR money as THEY see fit."

i think the entire point that keith is trying to make is that it isn't there money. you know, debt, borrow, words like that.

February 28, 2007 11:38 PM


Genius, read the post this is refering to. Those people buying "obscene" homes are buying with C-A-S-H as in NO DEBT as in they didn't borrow anything.

And PS: Learn some grammar man. It's not there money it's their money. But I can't expect much in the ways of education from a renting socialist like you.

Anonymous said...

might as well rename this place from Housing Panic to

SOCIALIST RENTERS OF THE WORLD UNITE

Karl Marx would be proud today. Thank you publik skools, thank you Democraps. You have achieved the dream. A country of lazy fat slobs convinced they are entitled to prosperity because they are alive.

Anonymous said...

So lemme get this straight:

Shopping at walmart where everything is dirt cheap without coupons is wrong. But shopping at a supermarket and using coupons and paying the same as you'd pay at walmart is admired.

Hmmm. So the admiration comes in making everyone life a lot less efficient. Nice.

showmethenouns said...

The laziest bunch of SOBs you could imagine. Attitude to no end, always complaining about something.

Like those losers on Glen Gary Glen Ross (Lemon and company). "Put that coffee down. Coffee is for closers".

Anonymous said...

So what do you all do with your money? I get you don't buy homes and drive old junkers. So do you spend your money on anything other than the basics? Go to movies? Dinners out? Cable TV? Play golf? Anything other than sit at home twiddling your thumbs and thiking about ways to save money? Any fun at all?

Anonymous said...

Gen X and Y should be shot, slaughtered, and sold for dog food.......

BOOM!!!!

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:41 says "You make me sick."

Right back at ya big guy...

Anonymous said...

I used to work with a guy who liked to show us his uncashed paychecks and brag about making money. But what he didn't tell us was he was working on his third divorce, his kids were strung out on drugs and everyone just thought he was a asshole with no friends and no life.

Shakster said...

Kieth- I want to tell HPrs,and especially FBs a story of the "Anti Casey Serin".
This has a moral to it,so read carefully,and pay attention.
I was sent to a job on the north side of California City to pour concrete for a new driveway for a very unique home to this area.When I arrived I went about my job as usual,and went to find the contractor for the job.I saw a young kid,early 20s,and asked,"where is the crew?"He smiled and said,"you're looking at em".He ,and a fresh from Mexico hired hand was all that was in front of me.I said ,"well,OK".I asked ,"been in concrete long?"To my surprise he smiled and said candidly,"Nope,This is my first house,I am the builder".I was a little amazed,and a little fearful for him,because this was 6 months ago,right in the middle of the downturn.I like to be encouraging to people ,especially when they re in the middle of such a task.
He ,and his Helper put on there boots,and we placed a large driveway within an hour.His helper said he could handle the rest.Then the ambitious greenhorn said,"come on ,take a look at what I am building here".As I appraoch the front of the house I notice the Real beams of pine in the eves,the real plaster,the real oak inthe door jambs the window frames,then the real Brick in the Architecture.He explains the design,and also explains how long it took him ,and his architect to complete the drawings.You would be amazed at the thought that went into it.Then inside we go,and more of the same thoughtfulness,and responsibility shows thru.No Plastic tubs,no facades,no cracks,no fake this ,and that.The Tile was real italian marble ,and pricey,the walls were hand sculpted with plaster,rock,and tile.The floors were 1st class as they say in construction,glass,crystal,and quality thru ,and thru.Six inch isulated,and soundproof walls,and his knowledge of the plumbing ,and electrical was high.
The home was 90% complete,and he had a little more to do.He showed me the Cat Backhoe he owned,the tools he purchaesd as he went.The whole time ,Me being an HPer to the core,I was thinking man,this kid is in deep.He said the cost was more than he expected,and that he was down to one helper,then pointed to a cot and sleeping bag that he had been sleeping in the last few month's.Talk about responsibility,he cut his costs without sacrificing Quality,and his Integrity to complete this beautiful house.
Being in the beginning stages of the downturn where the locals were talking of the glut of homes,the crews talking of slowdowns,the for sale signs popping up everywhere,and of course my awareness of the bursting bubble,I was speechless.I decided to encourage this kid to keep after it,complete it,and that he would have a better chance at getting his price because of the extreme Quality.I couldn't dash his hopes.You see,this Kid quit a high paying engineering job with a Major defense contractor in the San Diego area to do what he loves.Designing,and building homes,not Jets. He was hoping to get 400,000 dollars for the home in an area where homes haven't hit that price level except up on "snob hill" where some McMansions with pools ,and acreage,but low quality have succeeded.His home was a sensible 2100sq/ft with a larger than avg front and back yard ,no pool.That was over six months ago.
About 5 days ago I arrived at our plant,and noticed an old ,but running dump truck in the drive.I went into the office to see a familiar face for he was there.We shook hands,and I ask How the house was coming.He got his price!The committment to quality,and his integrity Paid OFF.He was there to do it again. In the middle of a bad down turn in housing,where all these experienced builders were in denial about all there homes sitting,the stupid flippers that bought 10 investment home each,the shoody building,and on ,and on,he said it sold fast.I bet the new owners are completely satisfied,and all the dummies that bought the crap boxes wonder why there home is deteriorating so fast.
The generalization that young people,or peoplr that have low paying jobs,or that nothing will sell in this market should be looked over one more time.One of the causes of this downturn has been a purely,in it for the money,screw the buyer attitude.
This kid deserves what he is getting,just like Casey Serin.

wawawa said...

I have a bumper sticker on my car which says "LIFE IS NOT A FASHION SHOW, TRY TO GROW UP"

My observation is that most people (speically yuppie young people) want to have everything in life, they want them NOW, NOW, not next year, not next 6 month, NOW. Thanks to relaxed lending standards they can have it all NOW!!!!

Anonymous said...

How do you know the 29 year old didn't have kids of his own? I had my first at 28. And I worked 70, 80 hr weeks. I also made partner at 32. Because of those long hours, my kids are now in top private schools. Upon graduation they will get into a top tier college. During summers they will be able to intern and not worry about getting a job to pay for college. And when they graduate they won't have $100K in debt (hell what am I saying by the time they graduate $100K will be the yearly cost).

Is all that worth missing a school play here or there to make a deadline...I think so.


And don't forget -- the person who posted that inane was comparing a 29-year-old with no children to someone older with children. Talk about a straw-man argument! When that 29-year-old has kids his priorities will change too.

he daughter's play, well at night, AFTER WORK HOURS, is indeed more important than the manager's precious schedule.

Anonymous said...

It's funny how all those thousands of layed off ex-factory workers used their severance/pension money and get into overpriced condo - flipping bussines.

Dozens of overpriced jail-looking 315,000 2 bd condos sold in last 2 years in Des Plaines Il, end up in Craigslist for rent 1400$ month.

Nobody lives there ,at night there is no lights on the complex.

Maintance of such condo cost is 2200-2700 $ a month with normal mortgage.

Pit

Anonymous said...

these anons complaining that someone is telling them what they 'deserve' and talking about 'caste systems' and bus drivers are missing the point.

buy what you can afford.

or, if that don't make you happy, then buy whatever you're willing (and hopefully able) to service the debt on

and if that don't even make you happy, then just buy whatever you can get some idiot to loan you the money for and make it THEIR *$&%^(%@# problem
(reference: iamfacingforeclosure.com)

happy now??????????????????

Anonymous said...

If a man is after money,
he's money mad;

if he keeps it,
he's a capitalist;

if he spends it,
he's a playboy;

if he doesn't get it,
he's a never-do-well;

if he doesn't try to get it,
he lacks ambition.

If he gets it without working for it;
he's a parasite;

and if he accumeulates it after a life time of hard work,
people call him a fool who never got anything out of life.
Author: Vic Oliver
You just can't win when it comes to money, or when it comes to other people's opinion of you.

Anonymous said...

Debt is not wealth!

California state motto!

Anonymous said...

``There's nothing wrong with a big house and nice car when you're actually able to afford it, but in Scottsdale where I wasted the last few years of my life, I know plenty of people who are making $50,000 a year or even less living in a $500k house and driving a BMW. Which is fine if you make $120,000, but not $50,000.''

This is a great sentiment, but while Frank is suggesting that people should be reasonable the numbers that he gives show how even the prudent amongst us have become tainted by the the current credit boom. The old rule of thumb was, IIRC, that your house should cost at most 2-3x your income. This would mean that someone making only $120K should purchase a house that cost $360K not $500K.

And purchasing a Beamer at, say, $40K. That's about half of the after tax income of someone making only $120K. That's a huge percentage and shows an unhealthy investment in a depreciating asset.

A lot of this misuse of credit surprises me because it doesn't seem to be prudent money management but to each his own. People get to choose their own risks. The borrowers and the banks are likely going to feel the pinch in the coming months. Well, actually, they already are.

As Buffet says, when the tide goes out you find out who has been swimming naked.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous
February 28, 2007 11:28 PM

The point of the post was that people like him are living off the excess of the housing market AND BEYOND THEIR MEANS. Yet they do not see 3 feet in front of them, at the societal affects of this market, even if soon the affects will be upon themselves. Spending obliviously, ignorant of what the world is becoming because it doesn't affect them - yet! These are not the traits of any virtous citizen of this once great land.

You don't know me so just shut up. I fight for blue collars interests EVERY DAY. I bought my 10-year old low-mileage Camry off Craig's list and SHARE one vechile between my girlfriend AND myself. My hope is that people like him can survive in America twenty years from now - but with complacency, the elite will eat them alive and replace them with huddled masses of illegals. Wake up and fight where the fight must be taken.

PS> After re-readig your response, I realize you are projecting onto me. You really do think you are better than your friend. I am sorry for you. You are not.

truthsquad said...

Here in Arizona with all the retailers trying to establish a presence,there's
a pharmacy war raging. Numerous coupons as $20 OR $25 GIFT CARDS for new or transferred prescriptions and even stores that don't offer their own, will accept and match the competitors.
So entire family was at doctors due to stubborn cases of flu/bronchitis because of terrible Phoenix air/weather and wound up with almost 20 prescriptions.
Drove around to every nearby pharmacy/supermarket/chainstore in a leisurely day and half and proudly netted over $400 dollars in cash cards from supermarkets like Frys, Safeway and Walgreen and CVS simply by filling prescriptions with COUPON.
I seek and use any coupon even if it's pennies off.
Oh..I'm a middled-aged high school dropout, multimillionaire (cash, like in green), retired at age 45 for good, have two mortgage-free incoming producing properties in NYC,(Manh. & Quen.) and drive a car that will be 20 years old this September with over 350k miles, while having more in my checking account than other's entire net worth.
And yes, I rent a house ,would absolutely never step in a Wal-Mart, even if it was all gratis, and think that Bush/Cheney and whoever voted and still supports them are all major league A-Holes and destined to a life of ignorance and onanism.

Anonymous said...

Why is it called a "credit crunch". I think a better description would be, a Credit Drought.

Anonymous said...

how casey serin - the kid, duped into housing mortgage.

Anonymous said...


This was written by some old fart who is bitter at his 29 year old boss. I know, I've been there as the 29 year old manager of guys in their 50s. Not fun.

The laziest bunch of SOBs you could imagine. Attitude to no end, always complaining about something. Unwilling to retrain themselves or learn new technologies yet feeling entitled to raises and promotions for doing jack shit 8 hrs a day. Stay past 5 to finish up a project that is already overdue? Fuck no. Not when their daughter's in a high school play tonight.

Contrast that to the 20 soemthings I managed. No attitude, no bullshit. Something needs to be done today? Fuck it I'll work till midnight if needed. Need to learn a new skill, a new piece of software? No problem I'll do it over the weekend, just point me to the online training classes.


May I please have a moment of your time?

Do you know what the differences are between a manager and a leader?

A manager thinks of themselves in terms of authority and privelege.
A leader thinks of themselves in terms of responsibility and service.

A manager drives his subordinates with his authority.
A leader is followed by confidant subordinates.

A manager uses his subordinates like inanimate "resources".
A leader takes care of his subordinates like a farmer cares for the crops that will feed his family.

A manager complains about the deficiencies of his/her subordinates.
A leader has a realistic assessment of each person and understands their motivation. He/she does the best they can with each person and unfortunately that sometimes includes discharging them.

If you haven't figured this out yet let me give you a priceless piece of wisdom;

People work to take care of their families.

If you help them do this they will help you do your job.

The next time that guy needs to go to his daughters play tell him to go and you stay until midnight and do his job for him. Do this without making a big deal about it, the next time you need him to work late or on a weekend he'll do it gladly.

Good leadership was the same then, is the same now, and will always be the same in the future. Take care of your people and they will take care of you.

Anyone can be appointed as manager but if there are born leaders I've never met one. The ones I've met all learned through mistakes and self sacrifice.

As you might guess I am one of those old guys who was also once a 29 year old "manager".

Anonymous said...

I'm afraid that our Gov't will start to bail out irresponsible debtors at the expense of the few remaining savers. Could it happen?

B747

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
People who clip coupons who don't need to but do it to make their money go farther are geniuses

February 28, 2007 10:43 PM

--------------------------------

I agree with you 100%!

Personally, I believe that people who call others cheap are either real cheap themsleves or jealous. (PERIOD) I laugh when I hear people call others cheap. In my book they are simply losers. My $.02.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

You all are very angry and bitter. And I don't mean bitter in the "bitter renter" sense. I mean bitter at the world in general. I don't know what happened in your past but it must have been really bad.

Some people drink to cope with the pain, some get high, some eat, some spend money and and some go on blogs and high five each other for being cheap bastards and driving 20 year old Camrys.

Whatever works for you. If this is how the pain goes away, I'm glad you're feeling better.

Anonymous said...

>> And purchasing a Beamer at, say, $40K.

Damnit, let's get this straight once and for all:

Beamer = BMW motorcycle
Bimmer = BMW automobile

Remember it forever!!!

Anonymous said...

Has anybody seen the commercial about the girl who just had her nails done, bought a new pair of red pumps to go with her new red toenails,, and finally snatched up a new red dress to go with her new red pumps and her new red toenails-all with the help of Mastercard. They are still selling the "I got to have this now" idea to people. This is our undoing as the wealth in this country has been redistributed. The 1% doesn't care about societal collapse. It will just make them richer and more powerful. Sickness...

Anonymous said...

I'm glad you're feeling better
****************************
"sigh" Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Hey Shakster thanks for that story, it was a great read. :)

duh duh duh said...

Don't buy Chinese made junk at Walmart. Buy the Chinese made junk from Target or Best Buy instead. By the way, I'm a millionaire too, and I drive around in a new BMW and don't waste my time driving all over town all day to make $400 in gift cards. Being a real millionaire, my time is worth more than that.

WhiteTower said...

I don't get the hostility to Wal-Mart.

Wal-Mart improves society's standard of living by reducing the price of commonly needed products.

Don't the coupon clippers want that??

Anonymous said...

Re: Whitetower,
Cheap consumer good don't matter. Healthcare, education, housing, energy, food, services - these matter! and costs are skyrocketing while wages are flat.

After all, aren't budget deficits good since they require less taxes for the same amount of government services?

Please people - try and think long term. God knows, our politicans aren't doing it.

Anonymous said...

the bubble? started at the change of the law that made capital appreciation on residences sold, tax free, thus saving up to 50% of time and earnings compared to earnings and all other investments, plus low cost borrowings, that made saving and savings unprofitable, the harm done to communities is unrepairable,

WhiteTower said...

Unless, you're Karl Marx, why would you want to increase labor costs?

You have to buy toilet paper, trash bags, and toothpaste somewhere. What's wrong with Wal-Mart?

YoungExec2B said...

This was written by some old fart who is bitter at his 29 year old boss. I know, I've been there as the 29 year old manager of guys in their 50s. Not fun.

The laziest bunch of SOBs you could imagine. Attitude to no end, always complaining about something. Unwilling to retrain themselves or learn new technologies yet feeling entitled to raises and promotions for doing jack shit 8 hrs a day. Stay past 5 to finish up a project that is already overdue? Fuck no. Not when their daughter's in a high school play tonight.

Contrast that to the 20 soemthings I managed. No attitude, no bullshit. Something needs to be done today? Fuck it I'll work till midnight if needed. Need to learn a new skill, a new piece of software? No problem I'll do it over the weekend, just point me to the online training classes.


I hear ya man, I hear ya.

I don't think it's a generational thing, it's a stupidity thing. Stupidity doesn't discriminate based on age.

YoungExec2B said...

This was written by some old fart who is bitter at his 29 year old boss. I know, I've been there as the 29 year old manager of guys in their 50s. Not fun.

The laziest bunch of SOBs you could imagine. Attitude to no end, always complaining about something. Unwilling to retrain themselves or learn new technologies yet feeling entitled to raises and promotions for doing jack shit 8 hrs a day. Stay past 5 to finish up a project that is already overdue? Fuck no. Not when their daughter's in a high school play tonight.

Contrast that to the 20 soemthings I managed. No attitude, no bullshit. Something needs to be done today? Fuck it I'll work till midnight if needed. Need to learn a new skill, a new piece of software? No problem I'll do it over the weekend, just point me to the online training classes.


May I please have a moment of your time?

Do you know what the differences are between a manager and a leader?

A manager thinks of themselves in terms of authority and privelege.
A leader thinks of themselves in terms of responsibility and service.

A manager drives his subordinates with his authority.
A leader is followed by confidant subordinates.

A manager uses his subordinates like inanimate "resources".
A leader takes care of his subordinates like a farmer cares for the crops that will feed his family.

A manager complains about the deficiencies of his/her subordinates.
A leader has a realistic assessment of each person and understands their motivation. He/she does the best they can with each person and unfortunately that sometimes includes discharging them.

If you haven't figured this out yet let me give you a priceless piece of wisdom;

People work to take care of their families.

If you help them do this they will help you do your job.

The next time that guy needs to go to his daughters play tell him to go and you stay until midnight and do his job for him. Do this without making a big deal about it, the next time you need him to work late or on a weekend he'll do it gladly.

Good leadership was the same then, is the same now, and will always be the same in the future. Take care of your people and they will take care of you.

Anyone can be appointed as manager but if there are born leaders I've never met one. The ones I've met all learned through mistakes and self sacrifice.

As you might guess I am one of those old guys who was also once a 29 year old "manager".

***

Very well said. However, in defense of the first poster, I have used exactly the same tactic as you have, for exactly the same reasons. All it got me was fake remorse out of my employees for making me stay late.

My employees have never had it so good, and have never wanted it better.