When George Bush, The Worst President Ever, decided that he was king and that Habeas Corpus was no longer necessary in his America, the media and the general population just shrugged.
Rule of law? Habeas Corpus? Who cares! What's on Idol!
Well, it's nice to see that at least five justices on the Supreme Court (and Ron Paul of course) still cared. It's nice to see that we still have a functioning government of checks and balances (but just barely).
And it's very, very sad to see a politician like John McCain, who had offered some hope as a "moderate", prove that he is nothing of the sort, offering this rant against this historic and important ruling
"The United States Supreme Court yesterday rendered a decision which I think is one of the worst decisions in the history of this country" - John McCain, head firmly up ass, June 2008
Folks, there are things more important than The Great Housing Crash. Top of the list is the Great American Values Crash under George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. We became a nation who tortured, a nation who cheated, a nation who stole. We became an arrogant nation, and a nation who briefly tore up its founding document, because of a few dudes with box cutters.
The recovery however now starts. Restoring Habeas Corpus is a first step. But if McCain gets his way, 5-4 with a new McCain appointee will go 5-4 the other way, and we'll slide back into the morass. And that's what this election is about.
June 14, 2008
By the slimmest of margins, the Supreme Court restores the Constitution of the United States and the rule of law in America. And McCain is furious.
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72 comments:
McCain is a traitor as bad as Bush
I'm glad to see you acknowledge that Ron Paul is not dead. His campaign for the presidency may be over but we need to take a longview toward recovering this nation's moral compass.
The movement which Ron Paul represents, for freedom, sound money, non-interventionism and free markets, this movement cannot and will not be allowed to die.
I appreciate your stance on Obama as a superior alternative to McCain. But come on, Obama wants to spend another %50B on yet another 'stimulus package' - this is his economic policy? Hey, why not make it $500B, why not $500T? The reason why not is that it is just digging us into a deeper hole from which it will be that much more difficult to emerge.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog/
Our country was weakened today and people are cheering for civil liberties restored, and the moral of this story is that it will allow the sworn enemies of this country to laugh at our own self destruction. These persons being held were taken into custody on the battlefield engaged in combat with American Soldiers, and are therefore not entitled to our courts. This was a 5-4 decision not 9-0. We are at war with a group of people that would kill every American if they could. I will say that if in the future an American City is destroyed not just a few buildings the next court decision on any person being held responsible for that destruction will be 9-0 but it will come to late. I know I am a right wing nut taking away your rights so continue to cheer and have a great Fathers Day and sent the Justices a nice letter thanking them for this wonderful decision and maybe the detainees some who are wonderful Dads would like to hear from some Americans who are on their side against Bush because that is what this is all about anyway. To all American Soldiers in harms way the true heroes of all this TAKE NO PRISONERS
To the Anon above who trusts the current US government more than the Constitution of the United States, when you state:
"These persons being held were taken into custody on the battlefield engaged in combat with American Soldiers"
I ask you simply - Prove It. Prove that they were engaged in combat. Prove that they were fighting the US or our troops. Prove they weren't simply innocent people, picked off some street somewhere in the world at random.
And there lies your problem. You cannot.
The current US government felt it had the right to pick up anyone they wanted anywhere in the world they wanted, toss them in a secret prison, torture them if need be, and give them no right to a fair trial.
The current government could basically make a person disappear. Innocent, guilty, doesn't matter.
Anyone.
Including you. Including me.
And you defend them?
Think before you type next time. And go re-read the US Constitution, the most beautiful document ever written.
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html
Don't worry.
Coward McCain will take the worst election beating ever in November.
McCain will be lucky to remain in politics after the election. He looks physically beat already and he has yet to go head-to-head with a man half his age and twice as smart. I bet a lottery that says he will on his own collapse and die before November, the bet is just WHEN he collapses.
McCain is old, (make that ancient)senile and disgraceful. He and the GOP will get whats coming to them.
Meanwhile: IMPEACH BUSHCO & CHENEYBURTON NOW! Prison, asset seizure and permanent revocation of passports.
"Think before you type next time. And go re-read the US Constitution, the most beautiful document ever written."
Americans read? Americans THINK. Are you serious?
America is DEAD. Eat shit and Die.
In Pakistan, the lawyers are leading a rebellion against the dictator who suspended their constitution in the false name of "security:
Where are the protesting lawyers in the United States?
Oh, I forgot. They're too busy getting rich to protest, or care.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=59952§ionid=351020401
'Musharraf should be hanged'
"Is hanging only for politicians?" asked Sharif, referring to former Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the father of Benazir, hanged by then military dictator, Zia-ul-Haq, in 1979.
"These blood-sucking dictators must be held accountable."
The demonstration, a few hundred meters from the presidency and parliament buildings in Islamabad, marked the climax of an almost week-long rolling protest across the country led by lawyers.
Sharif has called for Musharraf to be tried for treason for suspending the constitution during a brief spell of emergency rule late last year and for the coup nearly nine years ago.
you're kidding, right? non citizens outside US soil should be able to petition for habeas corpus? Well, guess all the German war criminals we detained in WW II should have had a chance to come here and file a petition for the writ instead of being tried in Nuremburg. Guess we should let the Guantanamo boys out to return to the battlefield to fight against us, right? That's really protecting liberty.
try petitioning for habeas in their countries.
"I ask you simply - Prove It. Prove that they were engaged in combat. Prove that they were fighting the US or our troops. Prove they weren't simply innocent people, picked off some street somewhere in the world at random."
um, that is what is suppose to be going on in the military tribunals, right?
"And there lies your problem. You cannot."
come on, the majority of those being held are enemy combatants. The real problem is we need leadership to get the military tribunals moving and get the guilty innocent figured out.
The new ruling does set a dangerous precedence. seems like it could make our soldiers guilty of violating the enemies constitutional rights when they fight.
It puts our constitution above those of other countries, which I am sure europe would be upset to know that we believe our constitution ranks above whatever they have over there.
I realize what the supreme court is trying to do the the fallout creates ridiculous ramifications.
Let's all pray that the Lord will grant us some more time.
This is one of the good things that have happened here of late, the other is the Irish voting against that EU nonsense.
Our US Constitution was DIVINELY inspired!
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798 John Adams
Torturing people is !!!NOT!!! acceptable.
Our morals have been going down the drain and soon this great nation will too if we don't start writing God's laws (which are for our own benefit) back into our hearts.
To anyone out there that thinks that churches should receive government moneys...you should read that wonderful document on the seperation of church and state!
What an incredible blessing to the US that the Lord gave to the us by that document.
And now we seem determined to take it apart.
The current US government felt it had the right to pick up anyone they wanted anywhere in the world they wanted, toss them in a secret prison, torture them if need be, and give them no right to a fair trial.
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isn't that technically the responsibility of the country where the abduction occurred? Now we are saying f'u, our laws take precedence? so that means, Keith, if you get abducted by the Chinese then the laws are China apply to you and not those of the UK where the abduction occurred?
Keith, where was Habeas Corpus for Daniel Pearl?? And Pearl was not even a combatant! You liberals never cease to amaze me.....
The current government could basically make a person disappear. Innocent, guilty, doesn't matter.
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you thing that yesterdays ruling will make them magically obey now?
And you defend them?
Think before you type next time. And go re-read the US Constitution, the most beautiful document ever written.
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I don't defend them but this ruling is going to cause more confusion. We are basically telling all other countries that our laws take precedence.
So much for i love you u love me foreign diplomacy.
and what does obama say?
we will probably find out in a couple of days once his team has had a chance to take a few polls, then it will matter where he is speaking, whether it is a red or blue state.
I think obama will have a difficult time defining an opinion because this is a huge gray area. you want to make it simple Keith but it is not. The issue is "what rights does a suspected enemy combatant have when the war is on going and what rights do they have when it is over?"
not very clear cut. which is why the court has struggled with it and why congress passed laws to help clarify it.
Why wasn't this decision 9-0 against Bush?
From Amendment V of the Constitution:
"...nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" (emphasis added)
The fact that 4 justices actually endorsed the indefinite detention scares the crap out of me. It seems pretty clear-cut to me that holding someone indefinitely without trying them goes against Amendments V and VI (speedy trials).
If someone really is dangerous, like someone gathering materials for a planned terrorist attack on the U.S., there's plenty of charges he could be tried for and jailed for decades upon conviction in open court (e.g. conspiracy to commit murder). If after 6 years, someone held in Cuba isn't told even what he's been accused of, when will he ever get a chance to defend himself?
And if we as a country continue acquiesce to these attacks on our rights, how long will it be before challenging an incumbent president is considered being an "enemy combatant"? Where still a little ways from that extreme, but I shudder to think how much closer we'll be if the next 7 years are like the last 7.
So now the non-uniformed enemy combatants will be interrogated in the field and turned over to the local authorities, which will make Gitmo look like a resort. Is this more humane?
The thing that really stands out is that 4 supreme court judges believe Habeas Corpus isn't an important part of American freedom, liberty, and the Constitution.
We are screwed.
When the sand people we are fighting treat us with the same rule of law, we can do the same to them.....until then....kill them all.....fool.
True Republicans and true conservatives can rejoice at this ruling. Those four "justices" and those frothing at the mouth are exposed for what they really are: Fascists.
Their long-term goal is a brutal hierarchy with a murderous fate for those they consider "undesirable".
This is the central issue in our lives today.
Here is a litmus test for you: if you can see this, your head is screwed on straight; if you can't your head is stuck somewhere warm and smelly...
PS Yes, Obama's economic plan is a real dud. But I'll pay thousands of extra taxes to get us out of Iraq in a heartbeat. After four years, the GOP might un-Nazi itself and we can proceed on a traditional left-right basis.
Never in the military history of the US or the UK, have enemy combatants received habeas corpus and other rights reserved for citizens.
In fact, I don't know of a country in the history of the world that has EVER granted habeas corpus to enemy combatants.
What's next? Reading an enemy his miranda rights on the battlefield?
Ok, i finally read the coverage in the paper.
I agree, it is about time that these people have their day in some sort of court. And that is all the ruling is about, habeas corpus. The court didn't even rule as to the how quickly this should have happened but they say that 6 years is getting to be a little long...
so that means that any new prisoners won't go immediately in front of a judge, which is the way it should be. but 6 years is a little long.
I do agree with McCain that once the door is cracked open you risk it opening up more and more and more.
The anti-Constitution crowd here is missing the big point
The current US government tried to make it their right to pick any human off any street anywhere in any country and put them with no right to a trial in any secret prison they desired.
Read that one more time.
Is that the United States you want to live in? Is that the United States you could be proud of?
Be against terrorists, want them all dead for all I care. But once you are against the US Constitution, you are a traitor.
I'm glad there are still a few patriots out there - Ron Paul and five of the nine Supreme Court justices highest among them.
But to have traitors like Bush and Cheney and McCain in or near the executive branch is cause for serious alarm.
One of the five patriots on the Supreme Court dies or retires under Bush or McCain, and this country is in dire trouble.
As was mentioned on the Diane Rehm show yesterday morning, unlawful combatants are now granted more legal protections than POWs.
So if you're going to fight against Americans, and you want the most protections possible in case of capture, you're better off wearing civilian clothes, hiding among the civilian population, attacking non-military targets, and torturing and executing any prisoners you take.
Congratulations, Keith. You and a bare majority of the Supreme Court are as unclear on the concept of incentives as that woman in New Zealand who stripped in disgust when construction workers whistled at her.
Hey people, petitioning for Habeas Corpus does not = letting them out to fight us again. It means we have to have some proof, any proof, that they are an enemy to continue to hold them. This is not beyond a reasonable doubt, this is simply an "air of reality" or perhaps "reasonable suspicion" that they are our enemy. The families of the innocent deserve at least this much.
Hope they don't all pull an OJ defense.
There was also another little mentioned victory over tyranny and that was the Irish voting against the Lisbon Treaty. The Lisbon Treaty is the second attempt for the New World Order minions behind the European Union wanting to impose their Constitution on all members of the EU to consolidate their power.
Imagine that a central, all powerful government ruling over all of Europe.
The battle isn't over yet because Gordon Brown and Sarkozy are pushing the Lisbon Treaty through anyway. They simply don't care. The English and the French people didn't get any say in the matter but their dictators will be forcing them to accept the Lisbon Treaty anyway.
America, there will be a time when you will have to stand up to fight the New World Order if you love America. When are you going to stand up? Once the North American Union is announced? Once the Amero is introduced? Once the US Constitution is replaced by the Mexico City Treaty?
You Muffin Heads think this decision is all about Gitmo? It has little to do with Gitmo. The prisoners there are insignificant dirt to the Supreme Court. This has to do with the extension of Habeas Corpus to all areas under U.S control. Traditionally, it has stopped at the border, except for U.S. citizens.
This is a landmark case that will be revisited many times by the Court as it is not a neat decision that fits very well into established law.
The Gitmo detainees will get there day in court. A few might even be let go. However, most will find themselves back before a military tribunal and an eventual jail sentence.
"The current US government tried to make it their right to pick any human off any street anywhere in any country and put them with no right to a trial in any secret prison they desired."
Wow, talk about intellectual dishonesty. The people in question are enemy combatants taken in Iraq and Afganistan. These are not people taken from Brazil, Canada, and Austrailia.
Nobody thinks that the US Govt should be able to take any person anywhere and do what they want to them.
"But once you are against the US Constitution, you are a traitor."
Ah yes, so if you don't agree with me, you're not patriotic. Sounds like Bushco. This isn't about being against the constitution, it's about who it applies to.
No one's arguing that the constitution shouldn't apply to citizens and aliens in the US. Well, I take that back. SCOTUS upheld McSame/Feingold a few years back, for example. It also trampled the constitution with the Kelo case.
Osama Obama is no friend of the constitution, Keith. He also voted for the extension on the patriot act.
The fake conservatives have become so mentally ill thanks to the Bush crime syndicate and a media that simply acts as a PR firm for the this criminal cabal that they actually applaud the torture and indefinite incarceration of those that have not been proven guilty of a crime. They think it's a good idea to give a single man the power to label anybody as an "enemy combatant" and have their rights to habeus corpus suspended.
In other words, they applaud the destruction of civil liberties and the establishment of dictatorial power in America. All because their dictator is a so called "Republican". A note to the moron fake conservatives out there - you're idea of Republican is not conservative in any way - it's neo-conservative when you discard the basic tenets of the US Constitution and blow trillions of dollars on killing third world A-rabs in the desert 7000 miles away (all for corporate profits of course). Don't you understand that your Neoconservative movement is about American imperialism, the destruction of the American system of government and the raping and pillaging of foreign nations for corporate profit? It's not about making you safe from terrorists - that is called P R O P A G A N D A.
Hell, the Neoconservatives, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Perle, Wolfowitz, Jeb Besh, Kristol etc etc.. spell it all out for you in the Project for a New American Century. All you have to do is freaking read it to understand that these are NOT conservatives we're talking about!!
Project for a New American Century (the blueprint for global domination as written by Kristol, Cheney and all the other prominent Neocons
The mental illness is so deep in this country that the fake conservatives think that torturing children is a good idea (anything to make them feel safer):
John Yoo and the Torture of Children
And here's a documentary you should watch that explains what happens when you promote torture and medievil prison practices. It's astounding that George Bush has set American back 1000 years and the fake conservatives applaud it because we have to be safe from those terrorists!!
DON'T YOU PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IS A GOVERNMENT WITH TOO MUCH POWER?
Giving up your freedoms for safety will never make you safer!!
Judge Napolitano on the Unconstitutional Patriot Act
Taxi To The Darkside (part 1)
Taxi To The Darkside (part 2)
Taxi To The Darkside (part 3)
Here's an added bonus for those of you that think the A-rabs hate America because we're free:
Operation Ajax : Part 1
Operation Ajax : Part 2
No, they hate America because America has been overthrowing and invading their holy land for decades.
Understand that the government and the media are not your friends. The media only acts as the PR arm of the government and big business these days and has for a long time now.
BTW - 9/11 was an inside job. Those three towers were brought down by CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. The evidence is OVERWHELMING. Do your own research. Do not believe me. You might think I'm crazy but for God's sake do your own research before you dismiss this.
Everything hinges upon 9/11.
9/11 Mysteries
TerrorStorm - Final Cut
I'm sorry for all the so called "conservatives" (read neocons) on this thread who are simply devastated that the Supreme Court just BARELY saved us from Fascism. I know, I know it was SO close to being within your grasp! Franco and Mussolini would have been so proud. Don't let the door hit you on the ass when you make good your threat to "move out of the USA if Obama becomes president".
Frank-who-hates-Scottsdale, I'm also talking to you:
BUH BYE!
How far do we take this Keith? Should we have granted 1st amendment rights to the Nazis and not bomb their propaganda radio stations?
Do we grant POWs 2nd amendment rights?
In a time of war, do we need to get a warrant to search the enemy's homes and other buildings?
Do we grant the enemy the right to vote and determine how we prosecute a war?
Kieth-
We will find a way around this ruling, trust me.
Second, they are not citizens nor on our soil, therefore the constitution never applied.
Third, nice to see you are a terrorist sympathizer.
What we will likely do now is turn them over to another country for even more harsh treatment.
You can't fight city hall, this is no victory for you. If you think Bush didn't already have a plan B figured out, you're crazy.
Signed,
A REAL American
McCain, lambasting the decision: "This is one of the worst decisions in the history of this country"
Obama, supporting the decision: "This is the essence of who we are."
And now, when you ask me why I'm supporting Obama over McCain, you have your answer about as clearly as you'll ever get it. I may disagree with Obama on many issues, but on the ones that really matter, I'm with him.
And for the record, I can't believe what a tool John McCain has become.
Being from Arizona, I can say I don't even recognize the guy from eight years ago. Someone got to him, or he's saying what he thinks he needs to say to get elected. And it's backfiring on him big-time.
One more time, because I stupidly think I can clear this up for some of you:
THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT BELIEVES IT HAD THE RIGHT TO IMPRISON ANY PERSON ON EARTH WITH NO RIGHT TO TRIAL.
ANYONE. FOR ANY REASON.
AND THE SUPREME COURT JUST TOLD THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT THAT THEY WERE WRONG.
Do you understand now?
Being pro-constitution does not make someone pro-terrorist.
Think people think.
I fear for the United States with this level of ignorance.
We are only as free as the least free among us.
Burn Baby Burn
Agree with Anon: "Take no Prisoners" It is not a legal matter any more, but one of survival
McCain: "This is one of the worst decisions in the history of this country"
I understand some people disagree with this ruling. People are entitled to their opinions. But if McCain thinks that this decision somehow even remotely compares to infamous rulings like Dred Scott (blacks not "citizens"), Korematsu (U.S. citizens locked up in WWII camps), Kelo v. New London (gov can take your home & sell it to developers), or Bush v. Gore (need I explain?), then he needs to stick to yelling at clouds. It's a shame to see what has become of him.
To Anonymous 6/14 12:35 PM, terrorists don't want to kill every American. They know they can't do that. Instead, they want to kill a few of us, and then sit back and watch us destroy ourselves. There's a difference.
>Being from Arizona, I can say I don't even recognize the guy from eight years ago.
Keith, we all know this is one of the new dem talking points to be repeated without end. Surprised to see you using one as these are mainly for the idiots, since they can't think of anything to say for themselves. It's plug and play. Prepackaged sound bites like shrink-wrapped garbage at walmart. You're better than that Keith. Man-Up Damnit.
And actually I was hoping someone would address the OJ like abuses to which our legal system is so vulnerable. Maybe federal court can't be turned into a circus as easily as the state courts. I think this is what has conservatives in such a twist.
Gotta disagree with you on this one.
These people are NOT citizens and are NOT POWs and have no Constitutional rights.
According to this logic, illegals must be given the same rights as citizens.
Let's hope McCain wins so when Justice Stevens keels over we don't replace him with another America-hating ultra-liberal.
Now let's start profiling Muslims in airports and start making life easier for the rest of us.
RE: "We became an arrogant nation, and a nation who briefly tore up its founding document, because of a few dudes with box cutters."
***********************************
What dudes with box cutters?
9/11 was all one BIG LIE!
(fake photos of the hi-jackers as well)
The worlds' biggest scam!
Wake-up people!!
There are many GOP members who make BIG profits from BUSH's OVER-KILL agression. There was no "war." Its called an illegal invasion. Stupid. Tragic, and just look at our country now. Broke, depressed and falling apart. Republicans are a bunch of idiots. We need to get rid of these criminals, one at a time. Just because you go to a christian church does not make them "right"...
In fact, they give their stolen money to their churches and spew the war on terror as a way to install fear in their sheep. Fricken sad, tragic and unreal.
Never forget that Hitler was a christian. So murder, torture, lies and deceptions are ok.
You've read the bush-regime books, you've seen the cover-up's and hear their non-stop lies.
Still need more proof? Just look at the gas pump prices, failing banks, massive foreclosures, bankruptsies and loss of jobs.
We've been bush-wacked Americans!!
Arrest 9/11 "no-oath bush and cheney" and stop the world's biggest thug and terrorist organization: The Texas bush administration.
I'm sorry, but the $600 tax rebate bribe checks did not fix your criminal activities and reckless management over the American people and children. Step down or get impeached and charged.
ITS NOT A WAR!!!!!
ITS AN ILLEGAL INVASION BY BUSH!
Our US forces/military are for self-defence only (please read the US constitution.) Bush and the jews are the criminal agressors here.
9-11 was a fake "under-cover" attack by the GOP/CIA to make it look like Saddam did it! To make the "WAR ON TERROR" seem as a do-or-die situation.
This explains why there was no luggage or human body parts on the pentigon lawn on 9/11/2001.
They told us lies, and brief reports (pre-fab stories) and NOTHING MORE. It was ALL one big lie. Hollywood-style as only the jews and bush-co could produce.
9-11. The BIG LIE.
The truth always remains.
.
.
.
What is even more worrysome is the attitude of McCain. When the judges at the highest court are struggling to come to a decision and they are almost split - it certainly was not easy. Calling their decision disgraceful does not do justice those who have to make one in the light of conflicting interests.
I just hope he will never have to face the same dilemas.
Way to go, Keith. You are on the right side of the argument this time. Where did all these neo-con wacko commentators come from?
I thought their movement had been completely discredited at this point, but apparently there's still a bunch of people out there drinking that kool-aid.
I've got no problem with imprisoning people who may do harm to our country. But we should have to charge them with something and then PROVE that they are guilty of it! I can't believe that people on this blog think that our government should have the right to take someone - ANYONE - and throw them in a cell in some foreign country forever with no charges or trial or guilty verdict.
Bush is clueless. I saw on the ticker this week that Bush was going to ask for congressional action to overturn this ruling. The only problem is YOU CANT DO THAT! The supreme court is the law of the land! The only way to overturn that decision is to amend the consitution!
Bush is a Goddamn psycho idiot! He doesn't even understand the basic tenants of the document he swore to protect.
George W. Bush is not the emperor. He has to live within the confines of the law!
We are a nation of laws! Why do the neo-cons hate that?
Jymkata
Here's the ugly truth about our so called "ally" Israel that you won't here on the mainstream news:
Insider Tells the Truth About the Cover-up of the Attack on the USS Liberty
For those not familiar with Capt. Ward Boston, he played what will one day be recognized as one of the most pivotal roles in recent human history. 40 years ago this upcoming June, he was the senior legal council for the Naval Board of Inquiry concerning the June 8, 1967 attack on the USS Liberty by Israeli Air and Naval forces that resulted in 34 Americans killed and 171 wounded. His job in 1967 was to be part of a hastily-called investigation into the attack, and–as he has recently revealed to the shock of many–to rule that Israel’s 90-minute bloodfest waged against America’s young men was all an ‘accident’ that occurred during ‘the fog of war’, all the evidence to the contrary be damned. In 2002, Capt. Ward broke his silence of 3 decades and released an affidavit to the public in which he admitted that the entire investigation was a sham, and that he was under orders (from persons of no less authority than President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara) to rule that the bloodiest day in American naval history since WWII took place as a result of ‘mistaken identity’ and that America’s ally, Israel–was innocent of any wrongdoing.
This of course has immediate implications on the so called "war on terror" and the Israelis that were captured on 9/11 celebrating the collapse of the towers in trucks with explosives that was quietly covered up shortly after 9/11. The same Israelis admitting on public Israeli television that they were there "to document the event".
BTW - Have you dumbass fake conservatives ever asked yourselves how the "war on terror" can be classified as a war? What are we fighting an ideology and a tactic? How can that be classified a war?
Have you dumbass fake conservatives ever asked yourselves why the perpetrators of 9/11 still have not been caught after more than 7 years? But we've invaded two countries and spent billions all on this so called "war on terror".
When you use the "we are at war" line to justify the loss of civil liberties and the treatment of these so called "enemy combatants" you have to realize that NO we are NOT at WAR. No nation has declared war on the US. The US has not declared war. You can not declare war on a tactic in the same way that you can not declare war on substance abuse or the drug trade (like the "war on drugs"). It's an abuse of terminology to call this a war. We are occupying Iraq but we're not at war with Iraq. Do you understand the difference dumbasses?
The supreme court is the law of the land
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geez, no, congress makes the law of the land. the courts apply it and interpret it.
hmmm, i wonder if the founding fathers were for applying the constitution to captured british soldiers. Not trying to make a statement just wondering.
9-11 was a fake "under-cover" attack by the GOP/CIA to make it look like Saddam did it! To make the "WAR ON TERROR" seem as a do-or-die situation.
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no, 9/11 was done by the Democrats to try to undermine Bush you idiot. get your conspiracy right.
To Anonymous 6/14 12:35 PM, terrorists don't want to kill every American. They know they can't do that. Instead, they want to kill a few of us, and then sit back and watch us destroy ourselves. There's a difference.
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no, they want to kill all who do not become muslim. they must, according to their strict interpretation of islam. They won't kill you if you convert.
The thing that really stands out is that 4 supreme court judges believe Habeas Corpus isn't an important part of American freedom, liberty, and the Constitution.
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no, they don't believe that. they simply believe that joe towel head doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of our constitution. Just like I wouldn't want Europe's equivalent constitution to apply to americans.
fing liberals want everyone to obey our laws.
The current US government tried to make it their right to pick any human off any street anywhere in any country and put them with no right to a trial in any secret prison they desired.
Read that one more time.
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The terrorist make the world their battle field, they have to, they can't fight a traditional war, that is why they are called terrorists.
So yea, i have no problem with the CIA snatching Osama where ever they find him. even if it is in Europe some place. the terrorists have no problem doing likewise.
We are at war, like it or not, and the battles can happen anywhere. did we worry about france's laws on D-day? and then every other country's laws as we marched through europe?
extreme comparisons, i know but there are similarities. if the country where terrorists are operating won't act in a fast enough manner to capture the dudes then we need to do it ourselves.
Problem is, this can get out of hand and abused sometimes. but that will always happen during a war, unfortunately.
PS Yes, Obama's economic plan is a real dud. But I'll pay thousands of extra taxes to get us out of Iraq in a heartbeat. After four years, the GOP might un-Nazi itself and we can proceed on a traditional left-right basis.
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obama isn't going to get us out of Iraq. He has gone from saying he would get us out immediately to now saying "we will review the situation to see how quickly we can get out". that leaves him a lot of wiggle room.
Thank you Keith for assuring me of my safety and that this is all just about basic good ole civil liberties that this evil country is trying to take away from these good people just going about their business when they were abducted right off the street by the 4th infantry and George Bush I feel better already and a 5-4 decision really makes me feel safer. The moral of this story is take no prisoners and when an American City near you is destroyed which will happen in our lifetime we hope that the next decision on these good folks might be 9-0 but for now we have Keith and the Constitution to read as homework.
You are dead wrong on this one. This is a "punish GWB" action that will cost American and Iraqi lives as sure I type these words. You have become part of the propaganda machine that has distorted the truth of the Constitution.
The problem (and the answer) did not lie with giving enemies in battle legal rights equivalent to those of American citizens. The problem has always been that "ONLY CONGRESS SHALL DECLARE WAR". Surely you see the truth of that. My statement condemns both political parties! In the case of this war, and a number of others in our sad history, Congress managed to dodge condemnation by hiding behind legal language that seemingly assuages it of direct responsibility. In the name of condemning GWB, the High Court punishes the soldier on the battlefield. It is another victory for enemies who wear no uniform, who hide weapons in schools, mosques, and public places, and who hide behind innocent civilians. What are the soldier's orders, now? How clear can they be? The problem lies with the fact that the Constitution was disregarded for the War in Korea, and Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf and in Iraq. Congress did not declare war on those countries. The High Court had the opportunity to make that point and correct a much more serious threat to the US Constitution, but they chose to hurt the common soldier - in the name of a feel-good policy. Don't you see you can't enforce pacifism in war time? And you can't outlaw war. One side is always violating the law of the other. Forever. I didn't care for McCain as a candidate, but if he's furious about this - I am impressed. This "restores" the rule of law? Force congress to "declare war". Declare the enemy clearly! Declare the strategy for victory clearly! Give the soldier all the power he deserves! Then fight the war with all you have! Or don't fight at all. But this is a travesty.
1. Nuremburg Nazi war criminals did face trial, in open court, with dead bodies shown to the court (habeas corpus) as well live witnessed. All that happened between 1945 and 1947, shortly after the fighting . . . not six years after the fighting ended and we took over their country. Most of the top Nazis that went on the Nuremburg Court were convicted and received death penalty. If some of those held at Gitmo are indeed guilt of the serious murder charges, they should face the death penalty, not indefinite denention without charge being filed against them.
2. Taliban was the de facto government of Afghanistan conrolling over 90% of that country's territory and population when the US invaded that country without a formal declaration of war. Technically we were never at war with Taliban. Many of guys were simply rounded up because they were fighting on the government side against rebel Northern Alliance . . . when we swooped in and turned the tide in that fight. Just like the American Taliban that got scooped up in the drag net, many of them were not there fighting Americans at all.
3. If the government claimed to have captured OBL and put him in Gitmo, we deserve to at least have a trial so we can be sure that it is indeed OBL, not some other random person, or a Democrat Senator on the no-fly list.
4. The laws of the US applies anywhere the US is in control. You can't get away with murder at a US embassy overseas, nor can you get away with murder in Gitmo. Because "Enemy Combatant" is designation can be assigned to anyone, not just those captured by Northern Alliance in Africanistan, but also those picked up by Pakistani Intelligence (which funded Taliban, OBL, and probably the alleged 9-11 terrorists themselves!), even American citizens picked up at American airports! Habeas Corpus certainly should apply. What would be the alternative? if you are suspected of a crime, any crime, the interrogator can subcontract you to Egypt for torture?
The cornerstone of Anglo-American jurisprudence is placing the onus of proof on the government prosecution; in other words, innocent until proven guilty. It's proposterous to hold people on indefinite detention without any formal charge. The but it's a war argument is nonsensical because:
(1) The emergency and intense fighting against Taliban regulars is long over; we have been occupying that country for six years now. Time to show the goods we have on the detainees; throw the book on them, or let them go.
(2) If a war that drags on forever can justify the suspension of constitution, then there would be tremendous incentive for the government to engage in endless wars, just so that it can operate without the constraints of the Constitution.
(3) These two are practical considerations. If you want to cling onto the technicality of state of war, then technically there was no war because it was never declared. So the administration can declare war first, and immediately has its leadership face charges of crime against peace under international law, for waging aggressive war . I doubt Neocon chicken hawks want to go there.
BTW, yes it would have been okay if US troops had killed the detainees while in combat (but not when they tried to surrender, of course, or after they surrendered). However, it would not have been okay for the government to kill American citizens on the spot at airports, where some of the detainees were picked up.
It's also not okay to railroad hundreds of detainees because "the majority" of did whatever. Throwing you into a cell with Moussoi and Muhammed doesn't automaticly make you a terrorist or make you deserving of life imprisonment without trial.
"Don't you see you can't enforce pacifism in war time? And you can't outlaw war. One side is always violating the law of the other. "
Nobody's saying that US soldiers should follow Taliban laws. OTOH, US soldiers and bureacrats have to follow American laws.
"The moral of this story is take no prisoners and when an American City near you is destroyed which will happen in our lifetime . . ."
Abu Gharaib and Gitmo have dramaticly contributed to AQ's recruitment. There were reasons why we had Nuremburg Trials.
"no, they want to kill all who do not become muslim. they must, according to their strict interpretation of islam. They won't kill you if you convert."
According to the same strict interpretation, Wahabbists also consider Shiites and non-Wahabbi Sunnis to be apostasy (i.e. not true muslims). So, why the heck do we have chips in that fight? Shouldn't we leave them to their own device so they can kill each other? In fact, Iran and Taliban almost came to blows on several occasions. Why in the world are we on the verge of fighting both of them at the same time?
"Bush is clueless. I saw on the ticker this week that Bush was going to ask for congressional action to overturn this ruling. The only problem is YOU CANT DO THAT!"
Clueless? It is a DEMOCRATIC congress. If they don't overturn the Constitution as to due process, they can then be depicted as "America-hating ultra-liberal"s as some wingnut wrote here about the Supreme Court.
As to the wingnuts, when the USA Consitution limits the powers of government, as in limiting the power of government to imprison persons, it limits it absolutely, and the limitation does not benefit just to citizens on USA soil.
In particular the clause on due process applies to "persons" without limitation or qualification, not just citizens, and this was very intentional by the drafters.
The USA government is forbidden from denying due process to any person in its power, which is a very different thing from USA citizens having a right to due process and nobody else.
John McSame is a traitor to the Constitution. He should be arrested, tried, convicted, imprissoned and then executed in public for all other traitor conservatives to witness.
Keith, you are 100% correct.....so you don't have to stoop down and respond to Bushco Nazis.
I hope the whole Bushco staff, past and present, is tried and convicted as the criminals that they are.
I would volunteer for the firing squad.....
The American Left is thrilled by this outstanding 5-4 decision that some may even travel to Cuba to congratulate in person some of these outstanding and now famous prisoners who as we all know were just in the wrong place at the wrong time when our Government took them without probable cause because America is always wrong and I have been told by Keith to brush up on my Constitution and so this Fathers Day will be spent doing just that. I wonder what George Washington James Madison JFK FDR TRUMAN would say to this wonderful 5-4 decision
mccain said it was the worst ruling in us history. give me a break.....so we have a bunch of people in there that absolutely nothing to do with anything and yet we keep them there without benefit of habeus corpus.....listen folks, that could be you or i....you had better listen....if you think i am joking, i am not. why do you think they are taking away our rights.......because they know the future and we don't ....
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Our country was weakened today and people are cheering for civil liberties restored, and the moral of this story is that it will allow the sworn enemies of this country to laugh at our own self destruction. These persons being held were taken into custody on the battlefield engaged in combat with American Soldiers, and are therefore not entitled to our courts. This was a 5-4 decision not 9-0. We are at war with a group of people that would kill every American if they could. I will say that if in the future an American City is destroyed not just a few buildings the next court decision on any person being held responsible for that destruction will be 9-0 but it will come to late. I know I am a right wing nut taking away your rights so continue to cheer and have a great Fathers Day and sent the Justices a nice letter thanking them for this wonderful decision and maybe the detainees some who are wonderful Dads would like to hear from some Americans who are on their side against Bush because that is what this is all about anyway. To all American Soldiers in harms way the true heroes of all this TAKE NO PRISONERS
June 14, 2008 12:35 PM<<<
oh bullshit to all of this crap. the american soldier is being used as a mercenary for outside interest. that is why we have a volunteer army. the citizen soldier would naturally start asking too many questions. it was not the afghans or the iraqis that invaded this country but it was us that invaded them on some trumped up charges that were not true. so now they fight us. well no shit. if someone invades your country, without cause, wouldn't you fight them? so now we call those who fight us, terrorist, when all they want is for us to leave their native lands. i have some news for you. the afghans had nothing to do with 911. you got that? is that clear? the iraqis had nothing to do with 911. is that clear? am i getting through to you, or shall you continue to swallow the spin of the zionist media in this country that spin things they way they want them to be? wake up people. we have been lied to. now we fight and die for nothing in wars that never end and all the while grow weaker in many ways. soon, you will not have a country to talk about the way things are going now. what we are doing to the afghans and the iraqis, we are also doing to ourselves.....make way for the world government that is coming, unless we stand against it in no uncertain terms....
"THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT BELIEVES IT HAD THE RIGHT TO IMPRISON ANY PERSON ON EARTH WITH NO RIGHT TO TRIAL."
keith, you posted on this awhile back. you readers actually read the law and in on pertained to non u.s. citizen enemy combatants.
hell...we even posted the damn law here and highlited the sections to you.
why do you refuse to read the law?
"I wonder what George Washington James Madison JFK FDR TRUMAN would say to this wonderful 5-4 decision"
What took so long (six years), and why not a 9-0. Major Andre, the British spy during American War of Independence, was:
arrested on September 23, 1780
convicted on Semptember 29, 1780
and executed on October 2, 1780.
That's all without the benefit of faxing or emailing, and America was in real danger of being crushed by the enemy.
When you have the goods on the guy, try him and punish him accordingly after conviction. Otherwise let him go. Indefinitely detention without trial or formal charge is plain tyranny.
Michael - I concede the point that Bush & Co can't pick me off the streets of London as a US citizen and toss me in Gitmo, but they can pick off my neighbor and classify him as an "enemy combatant".
Most importantly, you are trusting and allowing the current government to determine who is an "enemy combatant". I wouldn't trust them with that power. Not in a trillion years.
That said, with illegal secret US prisons around the world, what is to say that Bush & Co can't pick me off and put me in one?
If there's no lawyers, no rights and no trials, a person can pretty easily disappear, even a US citizen.
This is not the USA I know. It's something warped and it's something the Supreme Court of the land (barely) just said was against our founding document.
Fear, fear, fear.
I believed limited government power was true "conservatism"--what we fought for in the Revolutionary War.
American values are that of human liberty, and we have always upheld the Geneva Conventions--if only to protect our own combatents.
To sell out these beliefs and rights out of fear is to sell our national birthright for a mess of pottage.
And yes, Daniel Perl deserved habeas corpus. To descend to the level of the enemy is to sell out the very values that we fight for. And subjects both our citizens and combatants to the very treatment that we are willing to subject enemy combatants. Remember WWII (Bataan), Korea (seizure of our ship), Vietnam prisons that McCain himself was subjected to.
Guatanmo Bay is the nadir of the beliefs of our forefathers--read Washington's biography and his decision how to treat enemy combatants.
That is why America has always been the envy of the rest of the world.
Don't ever sell out our proud history out of fear. Or I fear for the future of humanity.
We are (were) the City on the Hill and this generation is digging the grave for our own cherished values.
RJ, Houston
keith,
i will describe to you an incident i had with a very liberal friend of mine.
we were discussing the containment of japanese u.s. citizens during WWII.
all i could say to him was this...
"war sucks...i hate war".
in a time of war i tend to have a little bit more faith in my government than you...we just have to agree to disagree.
I am appalled when I read some of those comments which must be written by some absolutely brain-dead people who do not seem to understand that the US has turned ever since 9/11 to a state of crime instead of law. How can you justify crimes committed by the US-authorities with crimes committed by fascists, terrorists and criminals? Unless you admit that you are fascists, criminals and terrorists. Which gives any country on earth the right to treat you as such.
This self-righteousness of America is what makes the world hate you.Do you understand: THE WORLD HATES YOU HATES YOU HATES YOU
You apparently have no idea to what point the US is despised worldwide, even by people that used to be in admiration before the "American dream".
The US of Truman gave a fair trial even to the Nazi criminals. And it did not take them six years.
Those who defend detention without trial, torture, assassinations etc as official US-policy make me puke. What is so special about the US, when it does all that? In what sense is it better than North Korea, the GDR, Soviet Union, or even Hitler Germany? The US has become a perfect member of the axis of evil. I sure hope your economy goes down the drain fast enough so that you can not afford any longer your word threatening military. I could never have imagined that I could ever become so upset with the US. All the underlying fascist tendency in your society play out now for their worst.
ThE only scandalous part of the verdict is that four judges wanted to liberate US-government from the Constitution and the rule of law. What you need is a revolution, and all the neo-cons and "real Americans" under the guillotine.
Oh the horror, oh the stupidity...
Happy European
Another victory for people who use innocent civilians as shields. The left must be very proud. It was already illegal to torture. Let Congress declare war.
"This self-righteousness of America is what makes the world hate you.Do you understand: THE WORLD HATES YOU HATES YOU HATES YOU
You apparently have no idea to what point the US is despised worldwide, even by people that used to be in admiration before the American dream."
I have spent a great deal of time overseas, and the most self-righteous, arrogant people I've ever met were unquestionably from England and France. The most racist and sexist were unquestionably from the Middle East and Japan. The most intolerant were unquestionably from Saudi Arabia and Singapore.
PARDON ME IF I COULD CARE LESS HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT AMERICA! You ask what is better about the US than Hitler's Germany...
How about when we liberated France and didn't keep it; When we conquered Germany and gave it back; and after Japan signed the unconditional surrender, we rebuilt their country.
All of you liberals have this delusion that the people of the future will all feel as you do - and live as you wish to live. Because George W. is an idiot, the word "terrorist" in any conversation with a liberal inevitably brings quaint smiles - because said liberal considers a "terrorist" as likely to exist as Santa Claus or WMDs in Iraq.
The reason for this is simple. 911 was nothing! A sucker punch. Some box cutters and a bunch of jet fuel with high inertia on a calm and peaceful day. That is nothing compared to the possibilities. That threat won't be defeated in court. It won't be turned back by Obama kissing European butts. I don't for a minute believe that George W. or any of his cohorts are fascists. If he were the evil bastard you portray him to be, we would have "found" WMDs in Iraq, the hijackers on 911 would all have been "Iraqi's" instead of Saudis, and Israel would have been entangled in the 911 plot to enforce the solidarity with the US and their cause in the Middle East. Pulling out of Iraq (or the Middle East as a whole) won't change the world's hatred of America. But Islamic rioting in France sure as hell turned that country conservative in a hurry.
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