"Detroit ended up making investments in SUVs and large trucks because that's where they perceived a competitive advantage and that's where they felt they could make the most profit.
"I think it was a mistake for them not to plan earlier, and now we're seeing a huge growth in fuel-efficient cars that is benefiting the Japanese automakers and Detroit is getting pounded some more."
- Sen. Barack Obama, May 2008
(The question is - who's dumber and more shortsighted: Detroit auto execs, or America's homebuilders?)
May 05, 2008
HousingPANIC Quote of the Day
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By the way, I rented a Ford to get from Hungary to Bulgaria. Three words:
Piece of sh*t.
What's wrong with American car companies? Are they just stupid? Do they not hire smart people?
The car I rented didn't even have cup holders. It's 2008, and a new Ford doesn't have cup holders. Amazing. The car rattled, everything felt cheap, the engine sucked, the MPG sucked, and yet for the same price I'm sure you could get a great Peugeot or Toyota. There'd be no compelling reason for anyone to buy this Ford. None.
America has some great companies. GM and Ford are not two of them. Maybe America will be better off when they go away.
What I don't get is that we've been here before -- at least twice. Remember gas lines?
What does it take for these guys to learn?
During the '70s Detroit responded to the need for smaller cars with the Pinto. That was the best they could do. The Pinto.
I'm surprised these guys are still in business. This could be their last leg as Toyota surpasses GM and then just continues to grab U.S. auto market share destroying GM's scale.
The homebuilders are smarter, they stole billions with the aid of mortgage fraud. Heads the builders win, tales everyone else loses. Same way with the banks. Honest citizens are saps.
Who came out with the most money?
Detroit are the bigger losers, aren't they? The builders were not the top of the Ponzi scheme, but sure made a lot of hay while the sun shone.
Keith,
You need to get out a little more as do your followers. I can tell you never step outside the city limits by your hatred of SUVs/trucks.
You see in between NY and LA there is this whole great country. It has lakes, rivers, mountains, forests, etc. An on these lakes, rivers, mountains, forests people do lots of things. Like camp, fish, boat, hike, ski.
Sure it's easy to get around in a Honda Civic for the suburban commute. But try hauling a boat with a civic. Or try navigating a foot of snow in a Civic. Or try maneuvering off-road with a Civic.
There is and will alway be a need for large vehicles. I own a 6.1L gas guzzling SUV that I use to do just what I described. Gas could get to $10 and I'm still heading to the great outdoors.
I commute to work in a 32 MPG piece of shit beater.
PS: I've renter plenty of cars in Europe and almost none had cup holders. And I'll bet your "Ford" was something else badged as a Ford, most likely Korean. I'm not defending Ford, just pointing out that you didn't really drive one.
"By the way, I rented a Ford to get from Hungary to Bulgaria. Three words:
Piece of sh*t.
What's wrong with American car companies? Are they just stupid? Do they not hire smart people?"
There is no car better than a Honda. When you drive a Honda, you think quality. I have had my Honda Accord for 5 years now and plan on keeping it another 10. You save big money this way unlike Dopes who buys a new excursion every 2 years.
I bought a Scion Xa back in 2006. I saw the spike in oil coming with the growth in China. I'm loving getting 39.6 mpg.
Recently I was at the Toyota dealer and I checked on trading in my '06 for a newer model. The newer Scions' mileage ratings have dropped. My model now only gets 32 mpg. When I asked about it I was told Americans want MORE POWER. So Toyota is now putting a bigger engine in it.
Same with the Smart Car from Germany. Over in Europe it gets 56 mpg. The ones they are importing are lucky to get 35 mpg. Once again-- a bigger engine.
GROW UP AMERICA!
Plus - these companies are run by white crackers...
Keith,
I've noticed that most European vehicles don't have cupholders. There's a reason. Europeans view driving as a responsibility and their skill demonstrates this. Americans, however, treat driving as a pass-time and do everything in the car EXCEPT drive. I lived in Germany for ten years and it is a pleasure to drive those roads, although they are getting more and more congested.
Thats right Screwchina. But don't forget the Vega. I was unfortunate enough to buy one, and it slung a rod leaving me to walk home. It was the most worthless piece of shit that I have ever owned.
That Peugeot 307 I rented and took on the autobahn a few weeks back was a sweet little car - about 50 mpg and did 220 kmh like a sunday drive. With nice cup holders.
When the French build anything better than the yanks, you know the yanks are in trouble.
The Ford plastic piece of crap shook at 100 kmh like it was going to blow up.
In the US I was a fan of toyota products - lexus builds the best and most reliable cars, period.
And back to Obama's point, to have a government who didn't increase fuel standards FOR THIRTY YEARS, and Detroit auto companies who didn't see high gas prices or the green movement coming, just shows that America and its auto companies are run by corrupt and incompetent monkeys
tater said...
Thats right Screwchina. But don't forget the Vega.
****
And the Gremlin - don't forget that marvelous piece of craftsmanship! I think they woulda made more, but the numbers were limited by the number of nosecones they could salvage from B29s for use as Gremlin rear windows.
Hondas may be reliable but have as much personality as a a blade of grass. There's more to life than fuel economy and reliability boyz and girlz. I'll take my no so reliable and so-so gas mileage BMW over a Honda/Acura or for that matter any Japanese car. The $10 a week I spend in extra gas and the $1000 a year in extra repairs is more than worth it.
Time to face the facts.
American CEOs and management "leadership" is most often fat, dumb, and lazy.
Fact ... They get paid handsomely to fail.
I bought a Scion Xa back in 2006. I saw the spike in oil coming with the growth in China. I'm loving getting 39.6 mpg.
Recently I was at the Toyota dealer and I checked on trading in my '06 for a newer model. The newer Scions' mileage ratings have dropped. My model now only gets 32 mpg. When I asked about it I was told Americans want MORE POWER. So Toyota is now putting a bigger engine in it.
First off the '06 Scion doesn't get 39.6 MPG. EPA rating is 32/37.
You were told something very foolish. In 2007 the EPA changed the formula for MPG numbers. Pretty much every car's MPG rating went down between the '07 and '08 models, some by as much as 15%. Nothing to do with American driving habits.
Not the CEO of this stupid home builder. I made hay while the sun shined then closed my books in 2005Of coarse being a sole proprietor those were my finances on the line so caution was prevalent.
Imagine the mentallity of your avereage CEO of a public company. Why would you even consider scaling back or closing the doors even though you know what is coming? This would eliminate your own position and income. So, just continue on and let the share holders take the hit. Meanwhile you continue to receive your compensation as everything deteriorates around you.
The whole "SUV" and "HUMMER" era is - thank goodness for all of us - is coming to an end.
Too late for GM to steer things around, they had plenty of time to do that already.
........But try hauling a boat with a civic. Or try navigating a foot of snow in a Civic. Or try maneuvering off-road with a Civic.
There is and will alway be a need for large vehicles.
===========================
Anon is right on with this one! When I go to the store or work its in a 98 Toyota, 30mpg. When I'm in the mood for some serious fun I take my 3/4 ton Chevy, 4WD, auto, full size, stretch cab. Not that bad on gas, 16mph on the open highway, and it hauls everything I want it to.
Sometimes bigger is better, just not ALL the time!
Quote by Idiot-Of-The-Year-Award: May 05, 2008 1:16 PM
#####
.....
There is and will alway be a need for large vehicles. I own a 6.1L gas guzzling SUV that I use to do just what I described. Gas could get to $10 and I'm still heading to the great outdoors.
.....
#####
Man, Dude, the mentality of the average Americano is just amazing, if not downright scary. And you wonder why the rest of the world looking amusingly at this nation , the land of the Snapper Turtle, and just shake their head in total wonder...
The Americano Housing Bubble has revealed the true anatomy of the Americano Australopithecus species. And what that anatomy amounts to is a heap of putrid, rotten to the core, maggot filled, rat chewing pile of garbage.
Greed, Ignorance, Irresponsibility, Laziness, Materialistic-Craze, Hoity-Toity attitudes are all part of the Americano rotted anatomy, stinky gut.
How a fat-ass, obese, beer-gut, rotten teeth, putrid breath, dumb-ass Americano male driving by himself a Ford Expedition on the road, consuming 15-18 miles per gallon of gasoline is just beyond the realm of reasoning.
How a whole family of cracker-nuthead, GrandPa and GrandMa, Joe6Pack and JaneZinfandel, 6 of the spoiled-brat runny nose snotty kids swarming the Walmart aisle after aisle piling junks on the shopping cart is pure hilarious and pitiful at the same time.
How a whole family of Hicks and HillBilly chomping down on oily, greasy McDonal french fries and Wendy’s hamburger is just so resembling the scene of the bunch of hogs roosting and wallowing at the feed trough.
The Americano nation is pathetic and sinful beyond the point of redemption !
Ramblings from the whole thread.
Like anon 1:16 - I too drive a small car back and forth to work, I have had it ten years now. It gets a consistent 38mpg occasionally hitting 40mpg. The cars were there, no one wanted to buy them.
I also have a three quarter ton 7.3L Diesel (Ford) I bought used (6 years old, I paid cash, someone else paid the depreciation) to haul my 4 horse gooseneck trailer or my tractor or anything else I need to haul like the requisite feed for my 17 horses. My truck works and the Japanese don't build one big enough to do all that (yet). I absolutely love my truck but I wouldn't drive it every day even if I could, because that would be STUPID.
Yes Toyota and Honda make pretty good cars. However I remember reading a while back about how Toyota's overall fleet fuel economy wasn't any better than the big 3 because they had started down that big truck/SUV route as well.
We outsource everything else why not auto manufacturing as well.
Like anon 2:04 - I spent time in Germany in the service. I felt safer in an Opel doing 110kph down the autobahn than I did in my (at the time) full size super cab long bed pickup doing 50 on I95 outside DC. The Audi turbo diesel at 180kph or the BMW at 205kph that was just a kick in the head. Even then there was always a wound up Porsche (high pitched whine) or big black Mercedes Benz (huge overpressure feeling WHOOSH) going faster than you. No big deal pull over let them go by. Germany has a different attitude towards driving, there it really is a privilege and it is treated as such. If memory serves, in Germany you had to attend something like a 6 month driving school, take a huge test, a road test and pay something like 1800 dollars for the right to have a drivers license. It is a big deal. Here it is a right of passage and a "god given right" at that.
I maintain that like housing with a little skin in the game you conduct yourself differently.
Roadkill
Anyone who lived in Motor City for a few years quickly realizes that the entire state is an entitlement state. It's all about handouts at all levels business and politics. There isn't a "bright bulb" outside of Ann Arbor (UofM) and they quickly leave town after graduation. The car industry operates like our government. They'll make the wrong decision everytime. Detroit is an absolute waste land. The "UP" is little more than than a welfare community...a money sick hole. Be prepared to support these folks for eternity.
Ex Michigan Resident who left as soon as possible.
To anon at 1:16
First of - use a name so that people can comment on your posts.
Number two - when gas hits $10, I will wait on the side of the road to see you push that SUV of yours off the cliff buddy. Great-outdoors, sure............
Where does it actually say that you, or me, are ENTITLED to do things like that regardless of the cost?
Countries with the highest average i.q. will always plan, build and engineer the most sophisticated products. Asian countries are at the top of the pyramid when it comes to iq and dominate and own high tech manufacturing. Africans have the lowest iq and build nothing.
Were in the middle. While we can actually build decent quality cars, the process of getting everything signed off by the bean counters who have never read about Dr. Deming (the American who put Japanese quality on the map) is a chore for people within the industry.
American car companies live and plan like American people. They try to make the most money in the quickest amount of time without much forethought as to what might be a better long term strategy.
Japanese car companies set business plans that are hundreds of years into the future. Ford plans for maybe the next 10-15 years.
Keith... what model of Ford?
I come from a family of UAW workers... and have lamented the state of the US auto industry my whole life.
As an engineer, I know that GM hires some of the best and brightest in the world. They spend the $bucks$ on industrial design and research.
Then they ignore the advice of the creative minds and try and build the cheapest models possiable.
I didn't catch the model - I think it was the Ford Piece of Sh*t 5.0 Hatchback
Cars like that make me NOT miss driving
That Peugeot 307 though, for a small size fuel-efficient car, was a dream. The engine just purred, good power, and amazing mileage. You know, like cars are SUPPOSED to be made.
What's gas going for in the US today by the way?
Once again, Barry Obama (and Keith) prove they shouldn't open their mouths when they don't know what they're talking about.
My Chrysler Sebring sedan 2.4 gets 33 MPG in daily mixed driving, has more horsepower and torque than a Camry, more interior room than a Camry, more standard features (including 6 airbags, power everything, Sirius radio), a lifetime powertrain warranty, and cost $6,000 less than what Toyota wanted for a Camry.
Chrysler's Journey crossover gets the best mileage of any mid-sized crossover with the 2.4L Chrysler GEMA four-cylinder, with an average of 30 MPG in mixed driving under normal conditions easily achieved.
Chrysler's Caliber gets over 33 MPG in daily driving with the 2.0 and over 37 MPG with the stick and the 1.8. It costs under $13,000 for a decently-equipped model. A Toyota Matrix hatch, based on older technology, costs about $2,500 more off the bat.
Chrysler's Patriot small SUV is the only trail-rated SUV with AWD that gets 28+ MPG on the highway -- more than comparable vehicles from Honda and Toyota.
Chrysler also has another high-MPG options in the Compass.
Chrysler's full-sized V6-powered cars, the 300 and the Charger, have excellent fuel economy for full-sized cars that easily matches that of full-sized Japanese competitors such as Maxima and Avalon.
All those Chrysler cars have better warranties and more standard equipment than any of the Japanese brands, and excellent fuel economy. All of them were developed by Chrysler in the last two years. Chrysler is offering incentives on them including cash back and 0% financing right now.
The bullshit about "American car companies didn't invest in high MPG" is uttered by idiots who never investigate the Big Three's products.
Chrysler is ahead of Ford and GM on fuel economy, but Ford has award-winning cars in the Fusion I4 and the Focus, both of which get over 30 MPG. GM's Aveo and Malibu are modern, well-engineered cars with 30+ MPG economy and competitive pricing.
I understand it's fashionable these days to talk out one's ass about American cars, but it doesn't make the people who do so any less ignorant.
PS -- Toyota, Honda and Nissan all make large gas-guzzling SUVs as well. Check out the MPG on the Tundra, Land Cruiser, 4Runner, Ridgeline, and Pathfinder sometime. All is not wine and roses in Japanland.
Ehh... it think america is getting the picture a little bit,m and conversely, the japanese are making their trucks bigger by the day, the tundra has gotten enormous, and nissan came out wtih the "Titan"... sounds kinda big huh?
Hell, i own a toyota tacoma with a v6 automatic and it gets 15mpg...for a "light" truck, my dads big ass duramax diesel gets better mpg.
That said, its kind of lame to compare an SUV to a smart car... compare the titan vs the silverado, or the camry vs the ford 500, then see what the mpg differences are....probably not much.
I went japanese for quality, not mpg. too many POS chevy's in my lifetime.
Keith,
Please, this deserves its own posting:
http://www.thebrightlightsofamerica.com/
PUNKS NOT DEAD!
That Peugeot 307 I rented and took on the autobahn a few weeks back was a sweet little car - about 50 mpg and did 220 kmh like a sunday drive. With nice cup holders.
It also won't pass US safety and emissions regulations, which is one reason why Peugeot-Citroen doesn't sell cars in this country. The EPA and NHTSA would ban the importation of them.
Comparing a European Ford (designed by Ford Germany and built in Europe) with a much-more-expensive Peugeot isn't the sharpest comparison either.
Ford's class-leading car in Europe is the European Focus, which it would sell here except... that's right... it's illegal to sell in this country due to emissions and safety regulations. Ford has managed to get a modified version sold in this country as the present Mazda3, after spending around $2 billion to "upgrade" the platform to US standards. Of course, when they do that, the added weight and cost makes it less fuel efficient and more expensive -- ergo less competitive.
The US Dept. of Energy keeps track of gasoline prices by region
I'm seeing $3.699/gal for 87 octane, and greater than $4.50 diesel regularly in suburban MD.
Checking the Montgomery County-owned public-accessible pumps, E85 was $3.879/gal and CNG, $2.229 per (energy equivalent of 1 gallon gasoline).
$10+/gal is my price point for getting a small fuel efficient car to squeeze my 6'11" frame into. By then there won't be any SUV's left on the road to crush a small car so the "safety" factor will be gone. But I only commute 5 miles each way, poor bas---s in cali who commute 40-50 miles each way are screwed. They are taking it from both ends, housing prices going down and gas prices going up.
Al qweefer wrote: When the French build anything better than the yanks, you know the yanks are in trouble...
I bet you talk like a Franco-Limey Eurotrash Americano so no-one knows you are a "Murkin".
Shenanigans!
My everyday car is a 1988 Buick Park Avenue with a 3.8 litre V-6. It is extremely reliable, is happy with regular gasoline and delivers phenomenal fuel economy.
I also own a 1989 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham and have recently purchased a new Cadillac DTS Performance. My girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse she has purchased new. We're extremely happy with our American-made General Motors cars!
No, I am not from Michigan or the midwest. I live in Philadelphia.
No, I am not a UAW member.
No, I am not some old coot. I'm a very youthful 42.
To me, Detroit made a good decision at the time.
Based on Bush tax policy promoting large vehicle deductions Detroit met the current demand and produced what was selling.
Now however, I think the stock to own would be Toyota as economy car sales are up 75% and rising.
If the US Government could promote domestic economy car production through government financing and tax incentive, I feel it could give our economy a small boost and point us in a good direction environmentally.
A great picture for describing what Bushco/Cheneyburton have done to America.
Head on into a brick wall. Hopefully George and Dick were ignoring the law as usual and didn't have their belts on and broke both their necks in the crash...
PUNISH THE GUILTY. STRIP THEM OF THEIR ASSETS
Just test drive an Acura MDX or RDX this week and let me know what you think. Now that's how Americans should build a car or SUV.
I have never bought a POS American car and never will. Only Japanese cars in my house. Go test drive an Acura MDX 2008, if you don't believe me.
I believe why everything sucks in the USA (and I can say this because I live in the US my whole life) is the reward system in place in corporations, government, sports, etc. = short-sighted, short-term results with ignorance of long-term vision. Someone does something well, we quickly promote them, give them money, elect them, etc. by the time what they did is found out to be stupid, they are already "promoted" again. It builds a pyramid scheme of short-sightedness. The people at the top aren't usually the brightest, they are usually the ones that didn't get caught while they were still in the same position. Of course there are exceptions but the fall of the roman empire will repeat itself if this goes on
It's not a matter of wrongly focusing on SUVs. It's a matter of Americans always building POS cars, independent of size. Even if the Americans automakers had concentrated their efforts on small hybrids, they would still be a POS. It's a culture of building ugliness, bad design, bad engineering, crappy union workers, etc. That culture won't change either.
But try hauling a boat with a civic. Or try navigating a foot of snow in a Civic. Or try maneuvering off-road with a Civic.
The last time I checked, Nissan and Toyota both make large trucks and SUV's too. However, they also make some very good fuel efficient cars. Ford and GM can't.
Here's gas prices Keith:
http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx
. . . and I still love you !!
What I've always wondered is why small cars in America are so UGLY and hard to tell apart. They sell adorable little cars in Italy, but they aren't imported here. The Japanese carmakers have also created adorable little cars that are sold EVERYWHERE but the USA.
I'm 50 and female, and I don't need a back seat in my car, because I always drive alone. I don't need a convertible because I would never put the top down, due to hairstyle and allergy issues. I don't need a big engine with lots of power because I seldom need to get on or off the freeway, etc. There are ZILLIONS of people like me who would love to drive something inexpensive, efficient BUT cute. But there is nothing available.
The whole "SUV" and "HUMMER" era is - thank goodness for all of us - is coming to an end.
Uh, no isn't. For instance, the Lexus RX Hybrid SUV is here to stay and take over the American crappy SUV market. Again, it's not a matter of car size but bad engineering and design.
"Japanese car companies set business plans that are hundreds of years into the future. Ford plans for maybe the next 10-15 years."
I have a pretty good feel for where you fall on the IQ scale.
If Obama made those comments in 2004, then he would be due some kudos. The man is an intellectual midget who is tricking Americans with his smoke and mirrors routine. We get what we deserve I guess.
What's gas going for in the US today by the way?
About $3.70 at Costco, in my neck of the woods.
Detroit is an absolute waste land. The "UP" is little more than than a welfare community...a money sick hole. Be prepared to support these folks for eternity.
You're referring to the Obama/Rev Wright base, right?
To anon at 1:16
First of - use a name so that people can comment on your posts.
Number two - when gas hits $10, I will wait on the side of the road to see you push that SUV of yours off the cliff buddy. Great-outdoors, sure............
Where does it actually say that you, or me, are ENTITLED to do things like that regardless of the cost?
=============================
I posted that. I never said anyone was ENTITLED to anything. I said there is a need for people who enjoy doing things like I described.
As for the SUV off a cliff theory, try again. On Saturday I went out to the lake. It's about 30 miles each way. Gas to drive there and come back cost me $20. And the gas for the boat another $35. So it cost me $55 to enjoy a day on the lake. Money damn well spent.
If gas doubles in price and my $55 day costs $110, so be it. I'm still going to enjoy myself on the lake. And the fact I had to wait 45 minutes to launch on Saturday indicates to me nobody is getting ready to give up boating just yet.
For all the moaning and bitching about gas, nothing has changed. When gas hit $2 the death of the SUV was pronounced. Same at $3 and now at $4. What happens at each milestone is people stop buying SUVs for a while. Then eventually they realize, what the hell, an extra couple of bucks in gas savings is not worth changing my life around. And by the summer you'll see once again sales of SUVs back to where they were.
Look at it this way. An SUV getting 15 MPG driven 12K miles a year uses 800 gallons. Difference between $2 gas and $4 gas is $1600 a year. That works out to $4.38 a day. If $4.38 a day is going to make that much of a difference that you'll give up the things you enjoy, then that is pretty pathetic.
"Hondas may be reliable but have as much personality as a a blade of grass. There's more to life than fuel economy and reliability boyz and girlz."
Really? I'd say there's more to life than defining yourself by what kind of car your drive. That's just . . . sad.
Countries with the highest average i.q. will always plan, build and engineer the most sophisticated products. Asian countries are at the top of the pyramid when it comes to iq and dominate and own high tech manufacturing. Africans have the lowest iq and build nothing.
-------------------------------
oh man, this one tops the cake (or bottom, depending on how you look at it).
Anon 4:41
"As an engineer, I know that GM hires some of the best and brightest in the world. They spend the $bucks$ on industrial design and research."
Then why are their cars so suckful?
Poor gas mileage when compared to similar models from Toyota, Honda or BMW. Poor reliability (I owned 2 Fords & 1 Buick before, lots of problems), poor handling. It's a miracle that those fools are still in business. I don't understand why anybody still buys this junk.
It's good to see that Obama knows what he's talking about and isn't afraid to tell the unvarnished truth occasionally BUT it's not his job to tell Detroit how to do their job.
The free market will take care of that. If the government would get it's d!ck out of everybody elses business we'd see a lot less malinvestment as the harsh realities of a truly free market force businesses to make intelligent decisions.
BTW - Just for the dummies out there. NAFTA is not true free trade. Free trade does not require government imposed agreements, tariffs or sanctions.
In Ontario, Canada, - today it's $1.20 a litre ($4.54 / US gallon) for regular.
Converting that to US dollars, it comes out to $4.48 US / US gallon.
Everyone here is talking about $1.50 / litre by this summer ( $5.60 US / US gallon)
And remember... we produce our own oil...
How a whole family of Hicks and HillBilly chomping down on oily, greasy McDonal french fries and Wendy’s hamburger is just so resembling the scene of the bunch of hogs roosting and wallowing at the feed trough.
The Americano nation is pathetic and sinful beyond the point of redemption !
Hahaha! Andrew Hac you kick ass! And all the while the family of Hicks and Hillbilly's shout "bomb those g-damn A-rabs!!" while they suck down their super-sized cokes and their shitty Venti-sized soy latte that tastes like curdled milk and charcoal in their gas guzzling Hummers as they drive home to their cookie cutter McMansion shitboxes to watch American Idol season 9.
We've been here before as some earlier posters have mentioned. I'm old enough to remember the 1970's when people were dumping their gas guzzlers and guess what? Here we are 35 years later doing the same thing. Will this finally be it where we learn our lesson. I doubt it. If gas drops just 15-20 cents a gallon (and stays there for a while), I'm betting SUV and truck sales will take off again.
Americans are not able to grasp the concept of Kaizen.
They're too stubborn (or lazy) to seek change, while in reality they should be applying this great Japanese philosophy in all aspects of live.
http://tinyurl.com/3mxsah
It all began with the change of the speed limits from 55 to 65mph.
Keith, to some extent you're in denial, but it's forgivable.
You see, each and every time you talk to an American about fuel-efficient cars -- I mean REAL ones, like those used in Europe with its $8/gal gas -- said American eventually concludes the conversation with something like:
"But it's so small! I'd never risk getting in such car in case there's an accident."
Detroit played us like fine violins in the hands of a 40-year master. They made huge cars that made other people on the road fear for their very lives, so those other people went out and got huge cars too. Now NOBODY wants to downsize their cars to the extent REQUIRED for true fuel efficiency. On average, when downsizing, they go down to a sedan that gets 50% greater fuel efficiency ... which is a pathetic rise of from about 18mpg to only 27mpg. BIG WHOOP! Americans should be clamoring for DOUBLE THAT!
And here's the next problem: Power, power, POWER! Americans are OBSESSED with it. As an anecdote of that, I asked my mechanic for help in finding a fuel efficient car with all his contacts, yet time and time again he kept producing an example car for sale that had "good power". He even kept talking about the power RIGHT AFTER that I had firmly said that I just didn't CARE about power, and that all I cared about was FUEL EFFICIENCY.
Americans are power and control freaks and they will spend themselves into being the next Albania. Their denial and fear runs so deep that there's no hope of seeing reasonably affordable cars available at a dealership in the next 8 years that gets over 32mpg. Americans are so dumb that they think that when a new car gets 25mpg, that's some sort of deal since their last one got 15.
I urge all people with any sense to check out Wildfire Motors. They offer a 3-wheeler car that gets 70mpg for $5700 brand new. It tops out at 50MPH and cruises at 45, but that's perfectly fine for you commuters. And it's entirely street legal. We need more people buying these kinds of things, since the more that dumb*ssed Americans see those sort of cars on the road, the more those f*cking primates will monkey-see-monkey-do.
"It's good to see that Obama knows what he's talking about and isn't afraid to tell the unvarnished truth occasionally"
I guess this is to help compensate for the whoppers he usually tells? Like the one about how he could no more deny Rev. Wright as his friend and mentor than deny his grandma.
Oh wait, after his recent speech, that "truth" is now "inoperative".
Just another politician but worse: he pretends he is something different.
In fact, I do have 2002 Honda Civic, and I have done all those great outdoor things that you described: camping, fishing, skiing. I didn't haul the boat with it, but did you notice that there are PAVED ROADS to most of the destinations you'd want to visit in the 'great outdoors'. YOU DON'T NEED AN SUV FOR THAT. Nether are they "safe", nor practical, or economical for that matter. They are poorly designed statements of arrogance, stupidity and over consumption. If you really need a great, roomy, sporty car, get a Forester.
I take my 03 Tacoma V6 4x4, and load it up with 2 tons every morning,drive 200 miles (round trip).175,000 miles so far,with an automatic.18 mpg loaded,22 empty,and as hi as 25 when goin camping.Only an aftermarket tricked jeep is better off road.No oil leaks,no problems,no questions.US car companies never sold me an automobile that compares.My last toyota went 600,000 miles ,and never ever left me stranded,and I didn't have to replace the clutch until 500,000 miles.It was still running with all the original parts,except clutch,and minor maintanence when I got rid of it.They sold me on my first one ,and the second is just as good. The bankers that make the decisions for GM,and Ford are the problem.They are not interested in cars.Just Profit.The Engineers,and designers are all hogtied,and ordered to cut costs.GM,Ford,and Chrysler absolutely know how to make long lasting ,good cars,they just don't for the stockholders would shit.My fathers dodge does have 408,000 on it,but it needed more parkinglot maintanence,and was a noisy sucker from day one.BTW it was loaded with japanese parts from the factory that didn't break.
The EPA fuel mileage numbers are a joke.My sticker said 16,and 17mpg.Anyone who is into cars knows to disreguard EPA malarky.
As for long Lasting Engines I drove Cummins,and caterpillar equipped trucks that had 1.5 million miles on them,and showed no signs of breaking down.
So any excuses by GM,and Ford,are just hot air.
I think the american auto companies wanted self destruction since they've used it as a way to layoff expensive workers.
The housing industry gave cities cover to raise property taxes and, here in minneapolis, property taxes are staying the same even as housing values are dropping.
Honestly, if the car industry goes electric motor, 75% of the auto workforce (who knows really, but a lot) will become redundant since electric cars are far less complex than gas cars.
So, in a sense, I think the SUV's were a way to make a lot of money, for a while, and then let the industry implode and restructure around a different economic model and, hopefully, in the next 10 years or so, we'll see almost maintainence free electric cars with very few parts.
BTW-After school in the eighties we would grab my buddys Honda civic ,and do some Mickey Thomson off road.We would get that thing air born on the rockiest roads attempting to kill this little car for over a year.It lived.F*k that was fun.Those were the days.
Hey, nobody's answering my ? - who's dumber - homebuilder CEOs or Ford/GM CEO's?
Peahippo,
Those three-wheelers were very popular in Indian and Chinese cities 30 years ago. They were rapidly displaced by Volkswagen Sontana four door sedan (70hp from a carberetted 1.5-1.8L) about 25 years ago when their economies started to pick up.
People (large crosssections of people, as in a nation) don't drive small cars because they want to; they drive small cars or ride mopeds because they have. Enviro do-gooders are a minority in any country. SUV's were just start to get popular in Europe a few years ago. Even the VW boss praised the kingcab US pickup and though Germans would love it when they can afford it. The real tragedy is that the US political and bnaking establishment has ruined the economy to such a degree that Americans are starting to have to live the poor life, like the rest of the world.
And here's the next problem: Power, power, POWER! Americans are OBSESSED with it.
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uh, then why does europe make some of the most powerful cars in the world?
That's what you get when you mix stupid and narrow thinking American CEO's with a cesspool of union workers. These high school drop out union workers think that they have a Harvard PHD to demand a six-figure salary to be moving tin all day.
The same goes to the "heros" at fire stations, who spend most of the time making calendar pictures and giving autographs to illiterate fat chicks. It's time to bring those high school drop outs back to wage reality in order to make our market more efficient and save money to taxpayers who actually earn a degree worth something.
"Japanese car companies set business plans that are hundreds of years into the future. Ford plans for maybe the next 10-15 years."
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oh yea?! well, we will just plan thousands of years into the future.... so there!
Well not to evade your question Keith but the real dummy was left our of your question. the dumbest one is all those poor saps who bought overpriced suburban c--p boxes and a hummer to commute 40 miles a day. So now the homebuilder CEO will regroup making "lofts" downtown and the autobuilder CEO will pump out fuel efficient pieces of junk and charge you a $3k markup while you happily accept 20 cents on the dollar trade-in for your SUV so they can take it off your hands.
Look at it this way. An SUV getting 15 MPG driven 12K miles a year uses 800 gallons. Difference between $2 gas and $4 gas is $1600 a year. That works out to $4.38 a day. If $4.38 a day is going to make that much of a difference that you'll give up the things you enjoy, then that is pretty pathetic.
Morons going from howmuchamonth to howmuchaday.
This 60 inch plasma TV will only cost me $2/day over 10 years!!! WOOHOO!!!
Based on Bush tax policy promoting large vehicle deductions Detroit met the current demand and produced what was selling.
That was a bad decision. They should have planned for the future. They should have known gas prices would continue to rise due to China and India industrializing. That tax rebate was a short term gift they should have uused more wisely.
If Obama made those comments in 2004, then he would be due some kudos. The man is an intellectual midget who is tricking Americans with his smoke and mirrors routine.
What does that say about the people worshipping him as their Messiah?
The Japanese plan 10 years into the future. The USA plans for the end of the month sales targets and usually gets it wrong.
Anon at 7:09PM
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The problem is that when gas doubles one more time from $5 that we will soon reach, there will be a lot of things that will not be affordable any more. You can agree that there is breaking point after which thing just will change. I doubt you will be thinking about a nice day on the lake, if that $10/gallon fuel translates into food living costs. Could you make ends meet if everything went up 30%? Well, maybe you could – don’t know your financial situation, but I know plenty of people that are being squeezed already… If you still could, good for you, but again, a lot of luxuries of our times are being taken for granted, and boating is a luxury in my book.
Of course the possibility is that half of the third world population will starve and die off making energy prices come crushing down at that point, but why should we care about them, right? As a side note, I believe that every country should manage its population according to its means, and not count on handouts from the rest of the world for their survival, but, we know how that works... Fact is that with our support of poorer countries, we created overpopulated regions that have no chance supporting themselves, after the trucks stop coming…
And in your distaste for small cars, you still admit that you can’t drive your big truck every day...
retiree benefits (especially medical) costs put the american automakers ad a cost disadvantage for like $1500 per automobile. And grows every year.
Japanese medicine is socialized.
"Instead, the Big Three North American companies’ cost disadvantage lies in their legacy costs because they have many more retirees than the transplants with their younger workforce. According to Dave Cole of the Center for Automotive Research, GM spends about $2500 per vehicle more than Toyota. Half of the $2500 disadvantage stems from the cost of retirement benefits."
from: Special Reports
BIG WHEELS KEEP ON TURNING: GLOBALIZATION & THE HEALTH OF THE CANADIAN AUTO INDUSTRY
May 18, 2006
http://www.td.com/economics/special/ca0506_autos.jsp
Jeez...this whole blog just morphed in CarTALK. Ok, I loved my Datsun 1200. It was green. No cup holder, no AC and you can't find them anymore...I guess they all rusted away.
Cute Italian car: Cinque Cento
They just redesigned it...it got bigger, like the mini cooper. Don't think you can get them here (rats).
Oh, and another thing. As it turns out, it's too late now for the million dollar idea: A personal, hydrolic, slow-spinning, front yard Hummer display platform.
I love my 2000 Ford Ranger. Inexpensive, decent MPG, tows a small boat well, clean simple design.
detroit don't learn !
i remember in the early '70s when they were taken off guard by the japs the first time.
there have been many books written on the folly of the big 3......guess nobody there can read.
Load Capacity 550lbs
But how will you get TWO fatass Murkins into that?
I have never bought a POS American car and never will. Only Japanese cars in my house. Go test drive an Acura MDX 2008
Yeah, it's amazing how your $45,000 car is better than a $19,000 US car.
The Big Three CEOs are the most shortsighted. If they were smart they would have worked for one of the homebuilders during the last ten years, and made a ton of money. Then when the bottom fell out kept their pay and declared their company bankrupt. Also, the Big Three CEOs have the legacy of quality of their product or lack thereof driving around for the next 15 years with the company's logo on the front. After 5 years who remembers who built a home?
Homebuilder CEOs also get away with building an inferior product that everyone loves. No one is importing homes from Germany to compare to the absolutely abysmal ones made here. It would be like comparing a BMW to a Chevy Cavalier.
Keith,
Current homebuilders have far dumber CEO's than current Ford and GM CEO's. Ford and GM had their share of dumb CEO's in the past, but the current crop are decent material. GM is doing very well in emerging markets, where the company should indeed focus its effort. Imagine a place where Buik is a bona fide luxury brand! Of course any CEO with his salt should focus on making more Buiks for those places than wasting money on lost-cause markets where GM cars are considered the bottom of the barrel.
The current crop of homebuilder CEO's, well, they are like the ones riding saddle at Ford and GM back in the 70's and 80's . . . only worse. Some of them may well end up in jails before all this mess is said and done.
The dumbest are clearly the home builder CEO's when looked at from the perspective of the large block investors. Ford and GM both are growing foreign markets while doing everything they can to remove the legacy high-cost production in the Americas. Eventually the idiots in Congress are going to pass some stupid ass corporate welfare plan to protect American jobs which will really enrich the CEO's and investors. As far as self enrichment goes the homebuilder CEO's are doing far better. Look how many of them are retiring while middle managers and small businesses in the midwest go under. The CEO's of the builder really did better for themselves by going with the home building industry.
Hey, nobody's answering my ? - who's dumber - homebuilder CEOs or Ford/GM CEO's?
It isn't even a comparison. The homebuilder CEO's had poor planning and forethought due to mass hysteria for a few years. The Big 2.5 CEO's have consistently screwed up for well over 30. Hands down, Detroit wins.
One of the Big Three will probably have to file BK at some point soon (and it's not going to be GM).
OOPS ,sorry Kieth.
Ford is dumbest,then GM.GM had the brains to whore-out with the FED.homebuilders got away with Moidah,and are lauphing all the way to the Bank.Mozillo will be a nice pony in the Show but won't lose much,and will have a Martha style cakewalk.
HomeBuilders,and Financers weren't in the Homebuilding Game,they were in the ponzi scam.
You all missed the underlying reason. Ford and GM were in trouble in the 70's because they didn't read the consumer right. The gas crisis changed consumer behavoir then. GM and Ford again did not read the consumer in the 2000's because again they did not read the consumer right, people want fuel effecient cars now. However, they were successful with trucks and SUV's where they created demand for the Lemming nation by offering a bigger is better, luxo barge which they convinced soccer moms were safe and prestigious. The point is GM and Ford exceed at creating demand, perception and consumer preferences and NOT reacting to consumer desires. They refuse to veer from their created mantra. This arrogant thinking has haunted Detroit since Henry Ford was alive. VW was the first company to give independent thinkers a vehicle that was cost efficient. I had one - it was a POS but cheap to feed and repair. Toyota followed the same thinking until greed got them into SUV's.
Retired Discruntled Baby boomer
I'm currently helping a friend replace the intake and head gaskets in his 2004 Oldsmobile Alero so the coolant won't keep dumping. It's a complete POS. Breaks down weekly by design. It's about $900 to have Mr. Goodwrench replace the gaskets, $150 to do it yourself. Looks like we'll be faking some receipts though. Class action lawsuit just settled covers almost 10 years of engines.
http://www.girardgibbs.com/dexcool.html
US made or not I think SUV drivers will be lynched once gas gets to $10 a gallon. Hybrid or not when people who have been crushed by high energy prices see someone in a large vehicle they will pull them from it and beat them.
How many of you freakin rednecks have a boat? They say the two happiest days for a boat owner are when he buys the boat and when he gets rid of it.
Load Capacity 550lbs
But how will you get TWO fatass Murkins into that?
or one WalMart shopper
Anonymous said...
"Hondas may be reliable but have as much personality as a a blade of grass. There's more to life than fuel economy and reliability boyz and girlz."
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Really? I'd say there's more to life than defining yourself by what kind of car your drive. That's just . . . sad.
I don't think that wanting a vehicle you're happy to drive is defining yourself by it, and I can understand the OP's feelings. I ride a motorcycle because I love to ride, but it doesn't define me. It's just a mode of transportation that pleases me, and which I'd utilize even if it got the gas mileage of an SUV.
I will say that Honda's are fine cars though... I owned a 93 Civic when I was younger and it's dependability and efficiency more than made up for any lack of excitement.
"They say the two happiest days for a boat owner are when he buys the boat and when he gets rid of it."
That's true for some people. They buy way too much boat that they can't afford. A lot of people buy boats on a whim without much thought. They don't realize that it takes money and time to properly maintain a boat. There is insurance, slip fees and general engine maintenance/repairs....and it's not a $20 Jiffy Lube oil change every 3 months. And it costs money each time you start it up (gas, oil). This is the big cost people forget about, they don't realize you can go though a tank of gas in a couple of hours at high speed.
If you can afford it, and have time to enjoy it, boating is one of life's great pleasures. If you can't, then it becomes a nightmare. Not unlike owning a house.
When the French build anything better than the yanks, you know the yanks are in trouble...
I understand better why the US currently has a problem.
Won't comment. Good luck to you all anyway.
Not many people here own their businesses obviously. The reason a lot of people drive the monster suv is the tax deduction. You can take fast depreciation on a big suv and write of 25% of the cost in the 1st year alone. Buy a $50K SUV, take a $12,500 deduction. That more than offsets the extra cost of gas.
So while you're laughing at the guy in the Suburban, he's laughing all the way to the bank as the Civic owners are subsidizing the cost of his suv.
So now Obama and The Nanny State will tell private companies what to build? Boy, get some pop corn, THIS will be fun! Where is my hammer and sickle, I don't want Michelle O to get all dem slices o pie.....
I, for one, admire America's home builders. Everybody wants to live in a 3300 sq ft house on a 4500 sq ft lot. Mass produced $800,000 is what everybody wants.
I take my car camping. The stupidist thing that I ever see is people hauling all their giant toys everywhere. What kind of children need toys? I can pack everything that I need for the outdoors into my car. There are places called "stores" along the way where I can get what I don't pack. I can also rent boats etc. How often do you use one?
Republican want us to go back to the 1950s, but we have only made it to the 1970s so far.
So typical of the $11 an hour McWorkin HPers concerned with MPG. Have you ever thought that some people just don't care how much gas costs? Yea sure you can buy a 35 MPG econo shitbox Hyundai that has no room, goes 0-60 in 3 days, will kill you in a fender bender and where you can't fit more than a duffel bag.
Or you can buy a big ass SUV that is comfortable, safe and has plenty of room. Poor people will choose option A, those with money will choose option B.
It's the same reason some people eat $50 steaks when a $10 steak is available. They can afford it and will pay a premium for the better product. Now you all run along and get in your Hondas and Hyundais on your way to the McDondald's $0.99 menu deal.
Heck, if you really want to economize, don't even bother buying a new car. Buy an older used car for cash: no payments, no interest, no need for collision insurance, no depreciation, etc.
Heck, I drive a super-reliable 20 year old Buick Park Avenue. I don't worry about parking lot dings and I don't worry about thugs trying to carjack me. Repairs are cheap and easy and fuel economy is great.
I've driven all kinds of cars, import and domestic, and my experience tells me the best buy is Buick.
Yeah, it's amazing how your $45,000 car is better than a $19,000 US car.
Not really. My first car was an used beat-up Toyota Tercel, bought in the late 80's for $700, with 100k miles and a few dents. I put another 400k miles on it while working as a messenger all over SoCA to pay for college, while the Obama base was busy listening to rap all day, playing Atari, wearing diapers, or doing blow with Obama himself. The only time that Tercel left me on the road was when I neglected the required timing belt change. Actually, it wasn't a neglect per se, as I was always broke, paying for college, rent and food, without any help from anyone. I was only 19. It wasn't uncommon to deliver packages from Carlsbad to Simi Valley and everywhere in between (i.e., Hollywood studios, huge law/CPA firms in LA and Century City, Beverly Hills celebs, military bases, Compton, South Central LA, etc). Many stories to tell. I still sold that reliable machine for $300 a few years later. I could never do that work with an American car, without doing expensive repairs often. Gas price was $0.70 back then. Now the $10k handbag celebs and $8 Starbucks Latte spoiled kids want to pick the next president for me. As Jimbo would say: "YOU KNOW NOTHING!!!"
So typical of the $11 an hour McWorkin HPers concerned with MPG. Have you ever thought that some people just don't care how much gas costs?
Have you ever thought that only 18% of the American population has a college degree? Lots of $30k millionaires out there who don't care about MPG. Good luck retiring in poverty!
Yeah, it's amazing how your $45,000 car is better than a $19,000 US car.
Show me any luxurious American SUV 2008 that costs only $19k. Also, you can find MDX 2008 under $38k. Give it another 2 years and the price for that 2008 drops under $30k. Or you can find other new Japanese SUVs that aren't classified as luxurious for much less. Don't forget that the residual value of a Japanese car is much higher than any American model.
www.autotrader.com
Have you ever thought that only 18% of the American population has a college degree? Lots of $30k millionaires out there who don't care about MPG. Good luck retiring in poverty!
It's actually 28% which is also the % of vehicles on the road that are SUVs. Gee what do you know, people who make a lot of money can afford to drive gas guzzlers. People who work for $11 an hour (HPers) can't. Shocking!
My first car was a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe wagon with 74K miles on it I purchased in 1981 for $650. I kept it for three years and bought a used 1979 Buick Electra Limited and handed the wagon down to my younger brother who drove it until 1992!
Gee what do you know, people who make a lot of money can afford to drive gas guzzlers.
Most Prius drivers are college-educated. Educated people know better than to drive gas guzzlers. If you go into the ghetto you see alot of huge Cadillacs and Lincolns. If you go into the redneck areas, you see lots of big pickup trucks. Then you have the trashy posers with their big SUVs
I have the money but own a nice Lexus IS350. Why would I want a big ugly POS SUV? I suppose that a big ugly fatass needs a big vehicle so he can squash his fat ass and big ugly wife into it. That's the sick culture these days. Everything is big and ugly. From McMansions, to Escalades, to pinky rings and thick gold chains. It's like those greaseballs in Brooklyn walking around with their big gold medallions trying to flash what little money they have like a bigshot.
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