April 28, 2008

HousingPANIC Stupid Question of the Day


Will The Great Housing Crash offer a positive lifetime financial lesson for those under 25?

69 comments:

Anonymous said...

Never trust a REALTOR

Frank@Scottsdale-Sucks.com said...

Doubtful. They're too brainwashed by MTV Cribs and materialistic hip-hop "culture."

Anonymous said...

no. under 25 are worried about other things to really notice and learn. for them, it will be the next bubble that they really learn from.

mairca izda debol said...

they're busy putting up pictures of themselves drunk or puking on myspace

Keep Paying Those Taxes Kids! said...

I hope they stay healthy and live a long life...

I need their taxes and SS deductions to fund my cushy retirement.

Keep working kids. The NEW mantra..

Anonymous said...

Under 25's don't even know what's going on in the financial world. A lot of them are $100k+ in debt from school loans. They're fucked.

Anonymous said...

Never pay anyone a commission for anything

brian t said...

Sure! They'll learn just as much as their elders learned from the last house price boom-and-bust.

Anonymous said...

They are not capable of learning lessons. Addicted to electronics and exihibitionism.

happy homeowner in the stix said...

Nope. They still think they deserve to be executive vice presidents a year after graduation.

Bitter Pennsylvanian said...

No, they are the future national socialists that will be sending us to the gas chambers for being too old or "useless eaters".
I see kids today that would murder their own parents for depriving them of their entertainment hours in front of X-Box, etc.

Anonymous said...

When I was 25 (3 years ago) I'd all but given up hope on buying a home in Northern VA. Things had run way out of control and I was incredibly bitter that everyone who could buy earlier had won the lottery and everyone else was left to rent for the rest of their lives (priced out forever!) Now I can see that prices will indeed correct themselves (eventually) and I'll be able to buy a house. Hopefully in a few years I'll have 20% and wield a lot of bargaining power over those who have ruined their credit.

FWIW, I didn't buy when I got out of school because as another Anon said, I was underneath a lot of student loans.

Anonymous said...

Keith, nice stock "diversity" photo. Where did you come up with this gem. All they need is a midget and a gal with a beard.

Tom C said...

wow, absolutely amazing what everybody here thinks of my generation. this housing bubble is not only a valuable lesson, but i have been profiting off of it for a couple years. some of us have more ambitions than getting drunk every day.

wc said...

i was under 25 during the last downturn in housing - working in nyc on black monday and was completely unscathed because i basically had no money. i watched as i heard unemployment climbed but was making so little no one would have fired me because with my youthful exhuberance - i put out twice as much as anyone twice my age - but what kept me from buying this time around was the lesson i remembered from 1987-1995 that reinforced what every one of us should already know - that what goes up most definitely always comes down - it took a little longer than i thought it would - i hope some of today's 25 year olds will remember too that it's never different this time

Anonymous said...

No. too heavily influenced by any kind of advertising.

WaitingToBuy said...

Do not trust anyone over 30. They have not figured that out yet but will within a year.

Anonymous said...

Don't be ridiculous.

You keep spouting... "Look at Japan... Look at Japan."

So - did you ever ask yourself what happened to people under 25 in Japan when their real estate bubble burst and economy tanked?

They're known as the "Lost Generation" in Japan. Essentially, today you have 30 to 40 year olds who never moved out because they couldn't get a steady job 10 to 15 years ago.

Do you think it's going to be any different here?

Keep it real.

Anonymous said...

Only if they are not part of a diversity driven public relations photograph.

Anonymous said...

Will The Great Housing Crash offer a positive lifetime financial lesson for those under 25?
===================================
I doubt it.

One of them where I work was all excited last week. He plays World of Warcraft whenever he isn't working. He came in to work and exclaimed "My gnome is naked". Someone hacked into his account and sold his characters clothes. Hope he can get it all back as I wouldn't want any of his imaginary characters to be running around naked.

Beware the naked gnome (and realtors).

drew said...

I find it amusing that a bunch of old Boomers would speak of we under-25s as though we're morons after they've completely fucked this country since arriving at adulthood. Thanks, Oh Wise Elders, for our $9tn national debt, our crashing economy, our Awesome Wars, our crumbling health care system, our incompetent government -- all of it.

Rest assured, Keith, we see what's happened well enough. It's the old-timers, supporting neocon lunatics like Clinton and McCain (and Bush and Clinton and Bush and Reagan), who don't get it. America can't get it up anymore, and we have them to thank.

Anonymous said...

Sure, for some it will teach great lessons.

There are all kinds of people in all kind of generations.

Anonymous said...

I'm 21 and I think I've learned my lesson. I attend college on a full scholarship, work part-time to pay the rent and I'm debt free on my credit cards. I am an outcast by today's youth standards: I don't drink, don't own an iPod or Blackberry and I'm completely oblivious to MTV and all that crap. I don't even have a TV set in my apartment. Sometines I feel like I come from a different planet, especially when I go to the mall or someone coaxes me to go with them to one of those lounges full of 30K douchebags.

As a whole I doubt my generation has learned a lesson, but there is a lot of trouble to come in the distant future

Stuck in So Pa said...

Bitter Pennsylvanian said...
No, they are the future national socialists that will be sending us to the gas chambers for being too old or "useless eaters".
I see kids today that would murder their own parents for depriving them of their entertainment hours in front of X-Box, etc.
===========================

A 16 yr. old kid down in Baltimore did just that a short time ago, because the father said he couldn't go over a friend's house and play video games. Husband, wife, two younger brothers shot dead!

Standard profile: "Such a nice boy, honor student, active in his church, eagle scout."

Be very afraid people. If this is what we are raising, imagine what the "bad boy, constantly in trouble, with failing grades, doesn't go to church, but does belong to a gang" is going to do at the first provocation.

Anonymous said...

No. Because their parents will not teach them the value of saving....Afterall, who do you think paid for all their luxury toys the last few years, and the videogaming industry is still seeing growth due to parents stupidity.

Kevin said...

The 16 year old kids name is Nicholas Browning and I live in the same neighborhood...google the name if your interested.

Telemill said...

I don't know about 25 year-olds, but I sure lived and learned with this situation. (I'm slightly older -- not a boomer though).

And we STILL have things to learn. This foreclosure crisis (coming out of the housing bubble) has even more lessons to teach us.

I learned one just recently, getting involved with the REDC Auctions this weekend. My sad story: http://tiny.cc/REDCauction.

Anonymous said...

I find it amusing that a bunch of old Boomers would speak of we under-25s as though we're morons after they've completely fucked this country since arriving at adulthood.

Actually, we, Gen X, think that you spoiled Gen Y'ners are a bunch of douchebags, too. Your latest fad is being Obama's b!tch.

Any Gen X manager can give you a clear picture of Gen Y'ners as employees. You browse those MySpace or Facebook pages and the vomit comes up into the mouth.

And what's up with all the girls from this generation who are turning into a bunch of whores at young age? These girls are whoring like crazy just to buy expensive handbags, designer jeans, etc.

Frank@Scottsdale-Sucks.com said...

"Under 25's don't even know what's going on in the financial world. A lot of them are $100k+ in debt from school loans. They're fucked."

I read an article recently, in Forbes I think, about how the housing meltdown is just the tip of the iceberg and the real economic crash will come from the fact that college grads are now entering the workforce so deeply in debt that they will have *NO* disposable income until they're 40.

College has really turned into a sucker scam. The more free money the gubmint hands out for loans and grants, the more the shyster colleges will keep jacking up tuitions. It's time to cut off the free money already.

Anonymous said...

I'm 34 and the people I see under 25 are completely lost. I don't have a clue about sacrifice and hard work. There are some exceptions, of course. The majority are idiots who get their news from MTV, Myspace, and EOnline. They are soft and weak, unable to do any hard work. I'm not talking about typing in front of a computer or talking BS on a phone. I was mowing lawns when I was 12 years old and unloading cargo trucks for $3.85/hr when I was 16 so I could have lunch money and help pay the rent. How many kids are doing that today? The ones from poor families are out stealing while the rest are playing video games. Every generation did their time, but this one thinks they are above getting their hands dirty. Yes, I blame the parents for raising a generation of spineless weaklings.

Anonymous said...

The youth of today aren't equipped to survive a depression. They'll be the first to die of despair when the electricity goes off on their Xbox or when daddy can't afford to hire that stretch limo for their birthday party.

Anonymous said...

Honestly, I think it could be quite possible. Didn't the Great Depression do exactly that for a whole generation of folks? If it gets bad enough, I think in fact it could swerve anyone who'll be old enough to remember the times when their parents couldn't actually afford anything and where they were forced to scrimp and save.

Of course, this relies on this recession being horrible enough to be comparable to the Great Depression in some form.

Anonymous said...

"Be very afraid people. If this is what we are raising, imagine what the "bad boy, constantly in trouble, with failing grades, doesn't go to church, but does belong to a gang" is going to do at the first provocation."

I would call that kid the honest one and wouldn't worry too much. In other words, watch out for the Eagle scout, goes to church every Sunday, straight A, etc. etc. type. Chances are helicopter parents are forcing things to be bottled up with that one.

Anonymous said...

I think a previous poster hit the nail on the head.

This is not just an "under 25" phenomenon. This whole way of thinking began with the baby boomer generation. They spent years living off the lucrative entitlements afforded them by the "greatest generation", making them complacent, greedy, and self rightious.

When our country began to slow economically as our great industries began to get exported to lower wage countries, what did the baby boomers do? Become more thrifty and try to re-establish american dominance in manufacturing? Nope. They simply started incurring more and more debt and leveraged themselves to the hilt.

And so our country trudges on, living beyond its fiscal means.

Anonymous said...

This thread reminds me of that SNL skit with Dana Carvey talking about kids and how easy they have it.

Let me guess you all walked 3 miles in snow to school every day as well.

Anonymous said...

Yes, i think the under 25 generation will be lucky... they were able to miss out on all this crap.

I am 30, and like most people, i was following the typical "life cycle that says finish school, get a job/married, buy a house, have kids, die. When we got to the "get a house" phase i almost drank the kool aid and fell in line with all my other similar aged compatriots. I didn't. the house we were gonna "buy" sold for $550k. It is currently for sale for $370k. I have told my younger friends to just chill out, and wait. They aren;t as dumb as you think....

Anonymous said...

No, they are the future national socialists that will be sending us to the gas chambers for being too old or "useless eaters".

Their boomer parents taught them well. While mommy and daddy were busy getting divorced, buying new toys, and leaving them in day care or at home alone, they learned street values.

College savings? Hell no -- mommy and daddy want a BMW and a fancy vacation. Go get into college debt, sonny!

Now mommy and daddy are broke and demanding a cushy thirty-five year retirement paid for by 60% income taxes on their kids -- who they never taught any values.

So they're just going to employ the values that their selfish indebted outsourcing country-undermining boomer parents taught them -- absolute self-interest.

There will be no cushy thirty-five years in the sun... there will be little dorm rooms in a clinical blue government housing project with rice and beans for dinner. Oh boomers, see what thou hath wrought!

Anonymous said...

I'd tap it.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, kids.

You can't have everything you want when you want it if you don't have the income to back it up.

Your parents didn't have the money either. They bought you all that cool stuff with debt, and they can't do it anymore.

I'll admit this isn't going to be fun for you, but look at the bright side...you won't be spoiled brats anymore!

Love,
Jymkata

Anonymous said...

I have to be negative on this one. Only a few will benefit from cheaper homes but only those with few debts and who are mature. Also, Im finding alot of gen y's with wealthy boomer folks get a big break also(e.i big down payment, connection to first job)

Relistically speaking every generation after the boomers will continue to have it worse. First of all many normal good jobs are gone. Not everybody is a doctor or a software engineer. Just getting a decent career job gets tougher and tougher. Add the fact that gen Y is huge and boomers are working later only compounds this problem.

The cost of living and debt is unreal. My 8 grand/year education. now costs 22 grand/year in only a decades time. You pay so much for a less valuable degree. My god a college degree gave practically gauranteed a good life just a few decads ago. Gen Y will make less money and have higher prices. Heck all generations are suffering this.

Yeah culturally they have it rough. Gen Y was just too coddled and too into VHI and MTV to even have a clue. We gen xers had our obsessions(think grundge and Mario Bro.s) but we also understand gloom and doom. I know Ill never have my Dad's lifestyle and he was a friggin high school teacher. I save because I have little faith. Why else would I buy gold and silver coins?

Heck, gen x and alot of gen boomers are screwed also but we did have a chance out of the gate. Gen Y will have it worse. Furthermore, homes are still outragoues around here in New England. I house going from 420 grand to 370 grand is no means a bargain. Also, they will suffer a touch transition inot the mundane work world.

keith said...

I'm glad someone noticed how funny this 'diversity' picture was

The missed Timmy! though. And a midget. Gotta get a midget next time. An Eskimo one would do the trick.

deepcgi said...

Yes, they will learn the lesson that life is not a test and that life isn't fair. In fact, it's meaningless. And you can't trust anybody, certainly people who say they are tapped into some Higher Truth - like god loves you or real estate always goes up. So, they will fall prey to hate. And because our society is a melting pot of political correctness, we will have no way of "pulling together" as a culture, so crime will skyrocket, as will racism and class warfare.

have a nice day.

upthecreek said...

Ya they will learn from this....They will learn to not move out of momma's nest... stay at home as long as they .....

Anonymous said...

Let me guess you all walked 3 miles in snow to school every day as well.
-----------------------

yep, it was up hill both ways.

Anonymous said...

I find it amusing that a bunch of old Boomers would speak of we under-25s as though we're morons after they've completely fucked this country since arriving at adulthood. Thanks, Oh Wise Elders, for our $9tn national debt, our crashing economy, our Awesome Wars, our crumbling health care system, our incompetent government -- all of it.

--------------------------------

geez, see you opened up your mouth and removed all doubt.

we have racked up around 53 Trillion. give us credit where credit is due, punk.

BTW (yea, even us old geezers and abrev. phrases), i am sure your generation will push that 53 Trillion even higher.

Wonky said...

Some might, but when I was that age I didn't have a clue as to anything financial.

Anonymous said...

I was 25 when this whole thing started. Now at 31 it still sucks to be a biiter renter in NOVA but at least I am better off then the debtors or with an overpriced Hovnavian condo.

Paul E. Math said...

Some will learn. Some won't. Just like the rest of us.

Whatever generation you belong to, you know how lazy and weak-minded your cohorts are. They are the reason we are in this mess.

Generation next is no better and no worse than our cohort were at their age.

BitterRenter said...

Ok I engaged in the generational conflict...

When I was a teenager we hustled our ass off for money to buy gas, grass, and beer. That meant mowing lawns, shoveling snow, doing odd construction work etc. Now the only people I see hustling for that money are illegals, and now that the economy is turning south so are they.

Who's going to shovel my walk?

Anonymous said...

I'm 30 (like it matters), I entered college in '96 and my friends and I always joked that if we'd put the money that we'd put into our education into buying a house around our college in OC (like some kids did), we would have been living pretty for a loooong time. But I went to school, got a degree, and now make under $30k/year. Oh well. I didn't jump when everyone else said the American dream was tres chic and tres affordable, because I couldn't fathom buying a hunk of sticks and stucco for ~$400k. So to get myself through these years as people my age were starting to buy, buy, buy and spend, spend, spend, I lived with this simple thought: Native Americans do not believe in private property and they are some cool, down-to-earth cats. Therefore, it's ok if I didn't own a house or an ipod or an Xbox 360. I have friends, family and I'm alive and breathing and that's what matters most.

Anonymous said...

The funny thing is, they have all the oppurtunity of information at their finger tips.

They are toast!!!

The generation to watch and teach are the under 12 year old kids. This will be the generation that could possibly turn this country around. These kids will be just like the kids during the great depression and will learn the life of hard knocks. They will be forced to learn good financial habits because of their unfortunate surroundings.

My kids are 8 and 10 years old and I talk to them about real estate, I have had them run and stock our store, and have shown them the importance of saving and investing.

My goal is to have them financially educated by the time they turn 18.

ICEMAN

Bud said...

Bud here. Had first job when I was 11. 25 years old now. College graduate. Job right after college with decent pay. Now no debt and plenty of savings. I rent. I have lots of friends just like me.

Message to the bitter old fogies: yuck it up while you can. Your workplace "skills" are antiquated. If me or one of my friends don't take your job an Indian or Chinese will. Sleep tight and good luck retiring on that lousy 401k.

mairca izda debol said...

Before you blame the kids, blame the parents for raising them that way. There are too many new cars, exotic vacations, and toys for today's youth. How many kids today actually have to work or do chores for their money? Remember when you grew up and had to do chores for your weekly allowance? How many kids today are out mowing lawns and cleaning pools? The reason we have so many illegals is because kids are unwilling to get their hands dirty anymore. We've raised a generation of poseurs who wasted time watching pimp this car or pimp my crib. I'm all for having fun, but you have to work hard before you play hard. America's children will be slaughtered by the fierce competition coming from Asia. You should see the armies of engineers, mathematicians, and scientists who have taken over our grad and professional schools. We are churning out lawyers, diversity managers, and polysci majors.

Anonymous said...

I enjoy how that picture has every racial, gender, and sexual orientation group in it. Well done.

Anonymous said...

unloading cargo trucks for $3.85/hr when I was 16 so I could have lunch money and help pay the rent.
--

OH! The kids will learn, yes they will.....

Frank@Scottsdale-Sucks.com said...

This whole way of thinking began with the baby boomer generation. They spent years living off the lucrative entitlements afforded them by the "greatest generation", making them complacent, greedy, and self rightious.

So true - my Boomer-age relatives could never understand why I put in all the hard work to get where I am; they were baffled why I didn't get a cushy cake job at an inflated salary with a big company and guaranteed pension.

Oh how out of touch they are.

In support of GenY, I met a kid at a seminar who is 17, an internet entrepreneur, wrote a check for a new Maserati and bought his mom a house in Beverly Hills. Sorry but I don't see any Boomers with that kind of initiative anymore.

GenY will grow up stronger because instead of a life with a cake job and company taking care of you, GenY knows they have to make their own way. Except that most will commit financial suicide by going into college debt. (The kid is going to college but on full scholarship due to his accomplishments to date, and he could pay cash anyway if he chose.)

Yes, most of GenY is f*cked up, but so are most Boomers. The only good generation I've ever met is my grandparents.

happy homeowner in the stix said...

Let me guess you all walked 3 miles in snow to school every day as well.

Nope, sonny....I grew up in Arizona. It was FIVE miles in 100+ degree heat, dodging Indian attacks each way.

An' we liked it!

Now, get offa my lawn, you damn whippersnapper!

Anonymous said...

Let me guess you all walked 3 miles in snow to school every day as well.


Yes, everyday to school and back. Uphill both ways.

Anonymous said...

I have to disagree entirely with this article. Gen Y as a whole is no worse or better than the Gen X/Baby Boomer/WW2 Generations. I see these arguments all the time. Quite honestly, I think the worst generation is the "Greatest" Generation, whatever that means. I keep on hearing about how the greatest Generation was so smart and moral, happy-go-lucky, selfless, godly....BULLSH1T. It was your goofy grandparents and great-grandparents generation who signed in the Federal Reserve and the Income Tax and all the other commie nazi laws back in the day. The Greatest Generation handed AMerica over to the Communists and Nazis, not the Boomers. America was a pigpen 80 years ago just like today, the government was bailing people out of their stupid money problems in the 1920s just like today. If the older crowd is so smart, then how come the Great Depression happened?

Another thing, Gen Y is much smarter and quicker on their feet than the older crowd. Even the Boomers have it too. But you people blab on about maturity and work-ethic and morals, another pile of BS. I hate to sound stereotypical but the majority of people over 30 aren't firing on all four cylinders. Someone who was 25 years old in 1930 would have had circles run around them by a 25 year old from today as far as smarts go.

I say this as someone in Gen Y, and I don't think these generational pissing matches are helpful to society. Anyone who takes a serious look at history can tell you that the older crowds voted in the weird laws the 'libertarians' here whine about.

theloknesmonster said...

Why fixate on the generation? The problem lies in the basic character of the individual.

All through history you've had the prudent and the careless, and perhaps a mixture of the two.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are either born with the, "live below your means" modesty or you ain't. I don't think you can learn it.

Those that don't have it will suffer during this upcoming depression.

See you in hell...

Anonymous said...

I keep thinking about all the young people I know who got pressured by their boomer parents into buying houses which have and are bleeding them all dry.
I have one friend who flat out told her mom she was not going to by a house. Her and I are the exception. How many of the "kids" are stuck from this parental pressure to overpay for housing?

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but Gen X is culturally superior to Gen Y.

Here's why... cusp of new wave-to-metal & alternative { Cure, Nine Inch Nails, Metallica, Nirvana, Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction }. These are five star acts.

Today's generation... Corn and Godsmack.

Anonymous said...

"Cure, Nine Inch Nails, Metallica, Nirvana, Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction"

True, the above is the elite [ in terms of specific musical talent ] of the generation, however, if you add in the other mainstream acts: U2, Madonna, Billy Idol, Seattle scene [Alice In Chains/Pearl Jam/Soundgarden], The Offspring, Shania Twain, Sheryl Crow, Alanis Morrisette, Stone Temple Pilots, Smashing Pumpkins, Smiths, The Cult, Depeche Mode, Gen-X parallels the Woodstock of their elder siblings but with a modern sound. In contrast, Gen-Y is a complete joke with derivative bands and hip-hop non-bands.

Anonymous said...

goofy grandparents and great-grandparents generation who signed in the Federal Reserve and the Income Tax and all the other commie nazi laws back in the day. The Greatest Generation handed AMerica over to the Communists and Nazis,

Typical Gen Y idiocy and ignorance. The WWII generation weren't even born when the Fed and income tax were created. What commie nazi laws are you talking about?

Gen Y is only smarter at pushing buttons, as in video games and email. They had to dumb down the SAT, GMAT, GRE and ACT in the late 1990's because the kids couldn't cut it anymore.

Anonymous said...

"They had to dumb down the SAT, GMAT, GRE and ACT in the late 1990's because the kids couldn't cut it anymore."

Nowadays, besides the LSAT and the MCAT (which still fit with pretty strict standards), many schools no longer use the aforementioned exam scores to make distinctions. They no longer help someone from a lower class, achieve a merit based scholarship to let's say Carnegie-Mellon, leap frogging over someone whose parents had coddled him with tutoring and access to a decent high school.

Terry Shumpert said...

I'm 30 and have learned one thing from this housing crisis: that the government will do its damnedest to keep housing prices from falling to rational levels, and keep the baby boomers afloat while we younger people are priced out of housing, bled dry in taxes, and left to watch our diligently-earned savings evaporate from inflation.

Anonymous said...

"achieve a merit based scholarship to let's say Carnegie-Mellon"

Dude, that's an engineering school. In other words, whenever there's a mass layoff cycle at a Boeing or a Cisco, who'll you see in the UI line? Yes, even a CMU grad.

Anyone from the lower classes should try to get a scholarship (hopefully with less of a loan component) to either a six year BA/MD or a PharmD program. I don't understand why traditional, even if it's top tier, education is sought after by the masses. Only international students and Americans (plus PRs) of privilege should attend these place anymore. Really, it's a two or three class society these days.

theloknesmonster said...

Another thing, Gen Y is much smarter and quicker on their feet than the older crowd. Even the Boomers have it too. But you people blab on about maturity and work-ethic and morals, another pile of BS. I hate to sound stereotypical but the majority of people over 30 aren't firing on all four cylinders. Someone who was 25 years old in 1930 would have had circles run around them by a 25 year old from today as far as smarts go.

Untrue statement. Today's 25 year old is simply more sophisticated because of the access to media stimulation.

They are also still living at home with mom and dad when the 25 year old in 1930 was already forced into the responsibility that many of today's "kids" will never be faced with.

Don't make judgments about previous generations until you actually buy your own roll of toilet paper instead of raiding mom and dad's supply closet.

Anonymous said...

"They are also still living at home with mom and dad when the 25 year old in 1930 was already forced into the responsibility that many of today's "kids" will never be faced with."

Yeah, but you can also say that 12 year old children, who were in Upton Sinclair factories, back in the 1890s had it harder than the ones in the 30s and 40s.

What's probably a better comparison is when America was a prosperous nation, with reasonable labor conditions, i.e. post-war boom era ('46 to '62), were those young adults more responsible, thoughtful, and better citizens than the ones today? I'd say that the eldest of the boomers (but not the median) along with some of the X-ers, who'd understood recessions and the arms race, are probably at par with older generations.

The Y/millenials are, however, clueless. At most, I'd compare them to the mid-boomers, who're effectively draft dodgers during the Vietnam conflict, ages 18-22 spread, but from '67 to '72, but believed that they were really Allen Ginsberg's next generation of artisans. We see the same type of pretentious behavior with Y-ers and the whole myspace nonsense.