If they went out and killed someone, and then said "hey, I didn't know murder was a crime", would they be a victim?
All these "victims" that the likes of Jesse Jackson and Chris Dodd are promoting are criminals who knowingly, stupidly and greedily committed mortgage fraud (they were called "liar's loans" for a reason). Instead of expecting a taxpayer-funded bailout, they and their co-conspirators should be expecting a taxpayer-funded FBI agent to come knocking on their door.
If we were a nation of laws that is, and not a nation of "victims". My fear is that we're now the latter, and that's why we're in the mess we are today.
December 13, 2007
Why are people who committed blatant, verifiable and illegal mortgage fraud being labeled as 'victims'?
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51 comments:
I had this debate with my in-laws last night. we were discussing the carnage to come and my in-laws said that a lot of people are going to suffer, and i was emphatic that people NEED to suffer to learn their lesson. she thought i was heartless; but my point was that I didn't go out and act stupidly because i am not stupid. sure, the wealthy bankers will make out like bandits, but that's how it always worked. the stupid people get screwed.
but the media will now portray people as victims, showing families tossed into the street. i don't take any enjoyment from this, but then again, i didn't act irresponsibly.
the media will portray them as victims because it is easier that admitting that, as a society, we f**ked up; we created a materialistic, greedy, superficial society, and no one wants to admit that.
I locked in my mortgages because i wanted security. Why can't i go back to the bank now and say, "hey, i paid all this extra interest because interest rates stayed low. can i have some of it back? i didn't know that interest rates would stay so low?" of course i can't, so why should it work the other way.
Welcome to the Great Nanny State...
We are all victims these day. Personal responsibility was tossed into the dustbin of history. Viva la Roma
This is what happens when you become a banana republic.
That's the Dummycrap way. The criminals are victims are the system. They were framed by The Man. I can't wait for all those hippie baby boomers to die off. They took the richest nation in the world and bankrupted it, leaving nothing behind except a mountain of debt.
This is possibly OT but I would like someone to answer this question, especially the "BAWAA HA HA WA HA" big mouth that seems to post all the time.
How can real estate "come back" unless exotic and subprime mortgages become available again? Yes, the "low end" housing market will eventually come back because that is what people can afford. There are people that save and act financially responsible and there are some markets that did not experience bubble price increases. Those markets will see sales increase because there will always be a market for housing. In fact, every once in a while, a house does get sold in one of the Florida bubble areas, but from what my sister in Tampa tells me, it is low end housing, or it is to someone that has a substantial down payment, not to someone that is looking to do a cash back at closing.
The laws of physics dictate that unless prices fall drastically, or the sub prime/no doc/ interest only/ etc loan comes back, then the real estate marktet that so many came to know and love over the last 6 years is gone. End of story.
Also, I have as much sympathy as anyone for poor people in the world that starve because they do not have access to food or clean water etc. But I certainly have no sympathy for people that have no access to unlimited credit so that they can take the equity out of overfinanced housing. No sympathy at all. And, if you are so stupid that you don't understand the risks that you take when signing multi hundred thousand dollar loan agreements then you should not be allowed to handle objects sharp enough to sign the documents with. Crayons should be all that you get to play with. None of this "victim" crap.
Keith,
What on earth gave you the impression that we are a nation of laws?
We live at the pleasure of the Deciderer. If you are the Deciderer's friend (or it is politically expedient for Him to give that impression), then anything bad that happens to you makes you a "victim." And he just redefines or ignores the "law" so he can "help."
If you are not His friend, then you can go suck on it.
plus, what is the worst thing that is going to happen to these victims? They become renters. must be terrifying to be a renter.
That is all they have left.
They never had common sense or dignity to begin with, and IF they know who their parents are, those parents did a shitty job raising their greedy quick-buck Americanos offspring.
A whole generation of shame and failure.
I, for one though, will carry-the-torch in the upcoming calamity for those of us that are responsible. I will do everything legally in my power to keep the losers down so they can never perpetrate this type of fraud again. I will evict, foreclosue in the dead-of-winter, pile belongings into the gutter while sniveling sick children cry, drag them to court - deport whenever I can, vote politicians out-of-office, repo their vehicles, whatever it takes...
We are entering the Penalty Phase and they ARE GUILTY.
Prepare and Beware. Your government hates you. Love your country, fear your government.
Talking about fraud...
Can anyone explain the Dow graph on money.cnn.com to me? If you do the last 5 days and set the frequency to 1 minute, there appears to be a miracle which happens between December 11'th and 12'th.
At the close of December 11, the Dow is down to 13,450. But miraculously on the morning of December 12, it's back up to 13,700. And by the end of the day it falls back down like a brick.
Isn't this a crystal clear case of market manipulation? How can anyone have faith in this market when the PPT's actions are so blatant? By doing this, hasn't the PPT robbed billions of dollars from people who were betting that the stocks were going to go down that day? If the PPT can blatantly do such criminal activities - then why should we blame all those sinking home debtors who lied on their loans? Why should we send Casey to prison over a couple of million (which he invested in actually buying houses) when the PPT is responsible for stealing billions of dollars outright? If Casey (as an example) goes to prison for 5 years for a couple of million - how long should the guys who stole a couple of billion go to jail for?
Where are our priorities?
From everything I know... market manipulation on this scale makes a bad problem much worse. It's like trying to hold down the lid of a boiling pot - the longer you hold it down - the bigger the explosion at the end. And with each passing minute you're getting more tired of holding that lid down.
I have been trying to understand why this FRAUD is being over looked. These people signed docs that were 100% BS and they should be held accountable for this crime. What ever happened to accountability in this country?? Have we all just turned into victims? Hey, I am a victim of the IRS, will I get a bailout??
I agree that someone who falsified
income statements committed fraud.
However, in real estate, but apparently not in mortgage brokerages,you are required to pass
exams which include ethics. So if you let someone get away with fraudulent
form, you are cheating your employer; if your employer okayed it, you should have quit. However we all know that shouldn't have happened.
WHAT WAS INEXCUSABLE WAS PUSHING
APPLICANTS TOWARDS LOANS THAT SCREWED THEM WHEN THEY HAD CREDIT GOOD ENOUGH FOR BETTER LOANS. AND
FOR NOT TELLING THEM THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE A HARDER THAN NORMAL TIME GETTING THE LOAN REFINANCED,
PAYING PREPAYMENT PENALTIES, AND PAYING THE LARGER MORTGAGE WHEN THOSE THINGS FAILED.
WHAT WAS INEXCUSABLE WAS NOT READING A F---G PAPER OBLIGATING YOU FOR 30 YEARS AND ASKING HARD QUESTIONS OF YOURSELF..NOT LOOKING
AT HOW WELL YOU WERE DOING ON PAYMENTS NOW, ON AVERAGE, BEFORE
SIGNING....LIFE DOESN'T HAPPEN
TO YOU???THERE'S A REAL ESTATE
WORLD SANTA?
AND WHAT WE COME TO CALL THE GREATEST FRAUD IN ALL OF HISTORY
WILL BE WHAT THE BONDSMEN, SECURITIZERS, HEDGE FUNDS, LARGE
PURVEYORS OF SIV'S, CDO'S, ABCP'S
ETC FOISTED ON THE ENTIRE BLOOMING
WORLD....WE ROBBED THE WORLD AND THEY ARE GOING TO GET EVEN....
For a real example, see this fb's story. NONE of this is her fault. Anyone who states otherwise is an obnoxious asshole.
http://tinyurl.com/yq2385
I love a lot about the SF Bay Area, but this stuck in my craw: The city of Berkeley is mulling over giving short term loans to FB's to help with mortgage payments. WTF?!? The definition of throwing good money after bad. And yeah, like my broke friend who really needed money a few years back, who took my loan and somehow lost touch with me when the payments became due - Berkeley will never see that money paid back.
They're "investors" when they first take out the equity in form of loans... and once they finish spending it they're "victims". Simple!
I think there are so many crimes the legal system can't come close to handling the number of cases. It's "white collar" crime or sorts as it deals with fraud in most cases. Easier to just sweep it under the rug.
Hopefully that rug will be pulled out from under our politicians once this bailout debacle becomes mainstream. Then the mess hidden underneath will be seen by all.
The thing that sucks about this ridiculous notion that people who cause their own problems are "victims" is that it motivates everyone else to become "victims" as well. If we all become such "victims" than no work will get done and there will be no wealth to give to the "victims" because only the non-"victims" are productive. This is an issue that's bothered me for decades. F*ck this Sh*t!
I was watching Ken Burns' The War last night and one of the men drafted into the conflict talked about how men go to war, and it is a current that carries them along and they find themselves in it, whether they like it or not.
Well, you are blaming the civilians and the soldiers for the orders from the generals that get them all killed. No doubt, this was the extended WAR on the Middle Class that has been waged now since Saint Reagan was swept in.
Rather than raise wages to meet with the excess liquidity that the CB's have been smashing through the system, our owners have saddles us, at every level with DEBT. Homeownership and the massive debt that goes with it will be the final crushing blow to the middle class.
STOP blaming the poor sods stuck in CONSUMERIST society only given debt to purchase things. They were only working with the tools given them.
Americano people are stupid, head-ass switching by nature. Add greed to that plus the non-existent morality in society and you have the SH*T hitting the fan in every direction. That's the current state of the land of the proud Americano !
Shame on the Americano !
We have turned into a looter nation.
Those who produce and work to better society are punished, and those who mooch and loot and seek freebies are rewarded for their laziness.
This has been the case for a long time. It is the model upon which our taxation system is based.
I see it in my business all the time. People contact us and demand that I send them my books for free. I am somehow "evil" for daring to sell them. How dare I make a living? People order products, sign for them, and then attempt to dispute credit card charges claiming they "never received it." It seems that more and more people in this country will go to any lengths to lie, steal, and cheat nowadays.
Calling the mortgage fraudsters "victims" and handing them a bailout is the next logical step in the degradation of the US into "Looter Nation."
I can't remember where I read it, maybe here?
But I believe those CDOs have buy back clauses so the issuers (ie. the big banks) have a contractual obligation to buy them back at face value if there was fraud involved in the actual mortgage loans the CDO is built on.
So a wave of arrests would guarantee that the big banks go under about 35 seconds later.
Hence, it won't happen.
I think that this liar thing might be overblown, the truth is most humans fudge or lie to gain something unfortunately to some degree, now you need to really think about this, people were allowed use ein's, no social security, no doc....these allow will allow mortgages without telling a single lie, so I think blame should not be monolithically dealt out to the people who got subprime, subprime products were made because there is a subprime market...furthermore, a small percentage of the subprime folks are in default or lost their homes, you seem to forget that a lot of people that got subprime also were not the people you probably have stereotyped by making Jesse Jackson the poster boy simply because of his usual class of people he defends, a lot of middle to upper class folks and also people like speculators and agents also got in on these loans too...so I think people are too focused on the end buyers...the creators of and also the stupid highly educated individuals that did not have the forsight to investigate the investments into risky loan products there is plenty of blame to go around so geesh lets not get caught up into whats being spun and more importantly what we are not getting as the real facts of the matter and situation.
Just as steroid users in Major League Baseball are responsible for their actions, so are borrowers who got in over their heads. Why should those who follows the laws have to suffer?
How can real estate "come back" unless exotic and subprime mortgages become available again?
It can't.
plus, what is the worst thing that is going to happen to these victims? They become renters.
Maybe ... in Orange County landlords have gotten ultra-strict on credit. They know the mortgage fraud deadbeats will come applying soon and they don't want them.
Miner_Tom said...
This is possibly OT but I would like someone to answer this question, especially the "BAWAA HA HA WA HA" big mouth that seems to post all the time.
How can real estate "come back" unless exotic and subprime mortgages become available again?
===============================
BWA HA HA HA HA HA
In 1980 when homes cost $40K idiots like you said the same thing. Now those houses are $400K.
How's all that working out?
pot, kettle, black:
For every blind illiterate welfare recipient who was conned into taking out a million dollar mortgage and paying the con artist for the priviledge there are 41 Casey Serins.
In the case you linked to:
"They said I made enough to cover a $493,000 mortgage! In reality I earn only about $55,000."
So she didn't bother to mention that to them when they showed her the paperwork to sign?
I always thought you read those legal documents, that if they are wrong and you sign them you can be sent to prison, before signing them.
Pot, Kettle:
I don't really care whether or not it was that dumbass lady's fault that she got scammed. It's still not my responsibility to bail her out.
FRAUD VICTIMS ALREADY HAVE A REMEDY IN COURT!
If there really was fraud, she should be able to prove it to a judge or jury and be made whole through the judicial process. That way, the FRAUDSTER is on the hook for the money, not you and me.
Oh yeah, and why is our government spending so much time and money going after baseball players for steroid use?
How about addressing REAL problems and going after REAL criminals for a change???
blah blah blah
dow up 50,afer up 40 yesterday and up 10% for the year
blah blah blah
application for mortgages up big
blah blah blah
retail sales up big
Keep talking nonesense HP. When you have a second take a look at what's happening in the real world.
Notice that only the DemonRats are saying these greedy FB's are victims. The Republicans are calling them speculators. Notice only the DemonRats are calling for a taxpayer bailout of billionaire Wall Street criminals and bankers.
I agree, these deadbeat debt whores most certainly are criminals... not victims.
Maybe they aren't being prosecuted because there could then be demands that the bigger fish, as you move up the food chain, would also be held accountable for their crimes.... all the way up to "Sir" Alan,Greenspan, the NAR shysters including David Lereah and any and everyone else who participated in what my turn out to be the greatest financial crime in history.
They're all guilty as hell !!!
How can real estate "come back" unless exotic and subprime mortgages become available again? Yes, the "low end" housing market will eventually come back because that is what people can afford.
------------------------------------
Easy, inflation. as long as wages don't stagnate.
I love a lot about the SF Bay Area, but this stuck in my craw: The city of Berkeley is mulling over giving short term loans to FB's to help with mortgage payments. WTF?!?
---------------------------------
they are trying to support their portion of the property tax take.
I'm tell ya, it's hard to escape. So I sold at bubble's peak and bought some properties overseas in a paradise island, when the exchange rate was great. Just on the exchange rate alone I made a bundle so far.
So I'm getting ready to spend my usual 2 months in paradise, but my friends there just told me over the Skype that Paris Hilton has leased 17 mansions on the beach for all her friends and vast entourage of security guards, assistants, black SUVs, etc, to spend the holidays in the same island.
Not only that, she's going to the same place for New Year's party, which is a nice oceanfront nightclub right on the sand. Thanks Paris, you just screwed our party with all that commotion you bring along.
We try to escape the American BS but it keeps following us around the planet. Just to give you and idea, the table (including food, champagne, wine, etc) for the party shoot up from US$300 to US$2,000 after Paris decided to join the party.
We were fine with all the Victoria's Secret models who now live in the island and are going to the same parties. But Paris Hilton is too much! Please fellow Americans, stay in South Beach and Vegas.
Welcome to 8 years of GOP ruling. They bankrupted the country in just 8 years and made everyone around the world hate Americans.
Enjoy your republican fascist regime.
HP'ers hurry up and view this before it is taken down
JFK Conspiracy? PROOF finally revealed! (with SOUND)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veGk9Gj2sjU
This has been the case for a long time. It is the model upon which our taxation system is based.
Oh yeah, that's why Warren Buffett keeps complaining that his secretary pays more tax than him. To all the republican whores out there on the GOP payroll, he's talking about the Effective Tax Rate, which is what it matters anyway.
I remember a year when Ross Perot's Effective Tax Rate was 6% and mine was 8%, after I did every single legal tax maneuver in my reach. Perot's income that year was $600 million, mine was $50k.
This bullsh!t that the wealthy pays more tax is pure propaganda by the usual crooks who don't give a damn about the working man.
Repeat after me, EFFECTIVE TAX RATE, EFFECTIVE TAX RATE...GOT IT??? If not, go take an accounting course before you keep vomiting stupidity around. Leave that job to GOP and Faux News.
You must know better than Warren Buffett, right Frank?
It seems that more and more people in this country will go to any lengths to lie, steal, and cheat nowadays.
------------------
That's what you get with illegals moving in and taking over.
I can't remember where I read it, maybe here?
But I believe those CDOs have buy back clauses so the issuers (ie. the big banks) have a contractual obligation to buy them back at face value if there was fraud involved in the actual mortgage loans the CDO is built on.
So a wave of arrests would guarantee that the big banks go under about 35 seconds later.
Hence, it won't happen.
-----------------------------------
If what you say is true? Then we pretty much have a definitive answer to the bail out legislation. Now, go figure who(and how many)are behind this measure, and why.
Man that's scary. I really hope you're wrong!
Sheeit-I'm glad they did it.Now if they would wake up a little more they could go into collusion ,and wipe the banks from the face of the earth,and keep their homes.
Fraud presented by the banks with government blessings,and the TAXPAYERS are screaming Victim.
Stuff a Ballot in it ya dirty voters.
If the public would have been savvy they could have noticed the scam that the banks ,and government were about to unleash.I would at that time advised some sneaky diry tactics to beat the bastards at their own game.Like do not lie on a contract-not because of morals(Nobody has those anyway),but to catch the banks,and brokers in a breach of contract(100% chance),and have a solid footing to do battle.A slice of the machetti to the neck so to speak.Slap me I'm dreaming.Voters go ahead ,and stick another fork in yourselves.
sf renter said...
plus, what is the worst thing that is going to happen to these victims? They become renters. must be terrifying to be a renter.
---
Considering how they acted all smug towards renters before I would say its poetic justice.
According to them renters are scum.
For a real example, see this fb's story. NONE of this is her fault. Anyone who states otherwise is an obnoxious asshole.
http://tinyurl.com/yq2385
---
looks like all the HPers are now getting stuck in. If Lisa didnt like it before she is going to hate it now!
"Perot's income that year was $600 million, mine was $50k."
Perot paid $36 million in tax and you paid $4K. Man it sure sounds like you got a raw deal. Those rich bastards hardly pay anything!
Of course by your screwy logic, Perot could claim the system is unfair because he pays 9000 times more tax than you.
Quit hating the rich. If it weren't for them creating wealth, people like you would be squatting in a thatched-roof shack picking lice out of your old lady's matted hair and wondering where the next meal is coming from.
Pot Kettle Black wrote...
For a real example, see this fb's story. NONE of this is her fault. Anyone who states otherwise is an obnoxious asshole.
Are you being sarcastic? I really can't tell.
"HP'ers hurry up and view this before it is taken down
JFK Conspiracy? PROOF finally revealed! (with SOUND)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veGk9Gj2sjU"
Nut case!
Perot paid $36 million in tax and you paid $4K. Man it sure sounds like you got a raw deal. Those rich bastards hardly pay anything!
Let it go again, repeat after me fool: EFFECTIVE TAX RATE, EFFECTIVE TAX RATE, EFFECTIVE TAX RATE IS WHAT MATTERS, NOT TOTAL AMOUNT.
Man, there are some dense people on this blog.
Perot paid $36 million in tax and you paid $4K. Man it sure sounds like you got a raw deal. Those rich bastards hardly pay anything!
Why don't you Baby Boomers die soon? Really, we are so sick of your selfishness. Just get a cancer and die for the good of humanity.
Pot Kettle Black wrote...
For a real example, see this fb's story. NONE of this is her fault. Anyone who states otherwise is an obnoxious asshole.
Are you being sarcastic? I really can't tell.
Yea, that's sarcasm. The fb takes NO responsibility, leaves a lot out of the story, and attacks anyone who questions her fraud. Call the waaaaahmbulance, she's a victim.
Even a shyster lawyer is victimizing her since he won't take her case for free!
I agree with Kurt--credit is a way
of giving ourselves the raises we
can't get our of the people we work
for, who want ever more profit. I hope they choke on it...
Keep checking the FlippingFrenzy comments:
http://tinyurl.com/yq2385
There's some great comments in there.
Unfortunately as of Dec 30th, 2007, the Flipping Frenzy moderator has pruned out most all of the good comments... leaving only the sympathetic posts.
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