June 29, 2007

HousingPANIC Stupid Question of the Day


In what ways was the housing bubble evil?

60 comments:

Anonymous said...

Just like with the war, a few connected government-corporate symbionts get rich sucking the life-blood out of the common Joe and diverting the whole nation from improving education and other things that would make us competitive in the global economy.

Anonymous said...

corporate greed

Anonymous said...

I know how it was near evil

The Everquest ipo was pulled after the Bear Stearns CDO debacle broke wind. Everquest was to be an offloading of packaged CDO crap to the public as an investment vehicle. The public was spared the chance to buy into "Enron 2".

RJ said...

Pure evil. TPTB pump the credit supply while buying in at the bottom of the various markets. They then watch their assets skyrocket in value as the sheeple buy into the growing manias. Then when it's time to tighten up the credit they sell off, converting their assets to cash. Wealth transference at its finest. The credit cycle is the means by which the sheeple are fleeced.

Frank@NeverColdCall.com said...

Hard to say. Calling the bubble "evil" makes it all too easy to let idiots who bought at the peak, or who bought on option-arm loans, "victims."

To me, none of them are victims. It was their responsibility to read what they were signing. There's a good reason many of us didn't buy during the Ponzi scheme - we actually read the contracts and said "no thanks."

Sure, the REIC and NAR and realtwhores and sleazy mortgage peddlers were evil, but in the end, they didn't put a gun to anyone's head. Their sheeple victims willingly chose to "buy."

Anonymous said...

How was it evil?

It destroyed American values. American's no longer cared about anything except making money for doing nothing but watching their house go up in value.

-Hard work? Naw, my house makes more.
-Peace in the Middle East? Naw war is more likely to make gas cheaper.
-Help my neighbor? Only if it benefits me.

The America I grew up in during the 70s and 80s has become a place that I barely recognize. The fabric of our society no longer exits and its just a single long thread of self interest.

Anonymous said...

It's not evil, Chuck Norris is Evil

California Socialist. said...

It was evil in that it made a base necessity even further out of reach and perpetuated the voluntary slave state for many homedebtors.

There is no life for those drawn into slave labor to pay uncle brothers company store.

GreedKills said...

The penultimate transfer of wealth.

seen Mozillo lately?...he's been going at it at double the pace since you last posted the yahoo finance insider transaction link.

Anonymous said...

Hmm let's see. It made me close to $250K in less than 3 years, all tax free. Nope, can't find anything evil with that. Sorry.

And yes that was real profit as I cashed out. If others behind me got fucked over, it only proves Darwin was right yet again.

Calling profit evil is ridiculous.

And for all of you talking about values being destroyed and greed, give me a break. Whatver lack of values we have went away long before the housing boom. If you recall the movie Wall Street with the famous "Greed is good" speech was released in 1987.

Come on people, think a little.

FlyingMonkeyWarrior said...

Gluttony of sq footage.
Murder of the local economy.
Liars on Loans.
Coveting passive cash flow.
Could go on but gtg to work.
TTFN

Anonymous said...

Im an honest guy whose frugal and wants a simple life. I started a family in 2003. HOme prices doubled from 2000 to 2004/5 here in NE. I still view owning a home as a difficult dream. I have an ok job for the city, my wife's a nurse assistant. A townhome should't cost 4 times our income in friggin NH.

Meanwhile many of the places I've looked have other young folks who bouth at the peak. I saw four townhomes-all had young people who bought around 2004/2005. They're screwed to.

Anonymous said...

People run for the exits, it's going to ugly, real soon here.

westchester chick said...

It providing breeding ground for at least 2 of the 7 deadly sins - greed and gluttony - not just corporate greed. We are now living in a society of have and have nots. With the ban lifted on desegregation the hands of time do seem to be running backwards.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
the whole nation from improving education and other things that would make us competitive in the global economy.
***************************************************
I hope your not saying that education is underfunded because of the war!?! Seperate issues, but more money will not fix the educational system in this country...

There is too much money being spent on education in this country. The entire "industy" makes the mortgage profession seem squeaky clean.

Anonymous said...

Frank@NeverColdCall.com said...
Hard to say. Calling the bubble "evil" makes it all too easy to let idiots who bought at the peak, or who bought on option-arm loans, "victims."

To me, none of them are victims.....

......but in the end, they didn't put a gun to anyone's head. Their sheeple victims willingly chose to "buy."

***************************************************

Well said!!!

Stephen said...

The housing bubble was evil because it priced people out of the market -- especially young people who never had a chance to buy in before things got ridiculous.

As someone on this blog pithily put it, why is it a bad thing when assets like oil and food increase in price, but a good thing when housing increases in price?

Asset price increases are good for people who already own the inflating asset, but they are bad for people who do not own the asset, but wish to acquire it.

Inflating home prices are typically referred to as an unconditionally good thing in the MSM. It's just not so -- not for everyone, at least.

Anonymous said...

BWA HA HA HA. People lining up overnight to buy $600 iPhones and you tools are talking great depressions.

BWA HA HA HA!! Keep it up renters, this free entertainment you provide is great.

Anonymous said...

@frank@nevercoldcall,

(From previous)

I stand SO corrected! It's been years since I've spent any time in HI.

Like they don't have ENOUGH problems? So... now they're going to "import" them? They can now join THE OTHER 49 states in having an "illegals" problem. Aloha!

DinOR

SPECTRE of Deflation said...

From Goldseek which clearly explains just how evil all this BS really is:

In this Fascist Business Model, the ruling elite have all the marbles, make all the rules, enforce those rules, protect their friends, collude with fellow agencies, abuse the power of government posts to further their cause of accumulation for wealth and power. For evidence, check the court decisions, the regulator actions (see SEC and CFTC), the lack of convictions inside Wall Street firms (see Enron, WorldCom, Tyco), the overturned convictions of minor Wall Street players (see Quattrone), the debt rating agencies sitting on their hands (see Fitch), the outsized short positions of gold & silver and other commodities like natural gas, the initial public auctions of Chinese banks (see ICBC). The gradually realized outcome of the Fascist Business Model, and why the elite love it, is that the Middle Class is drained, and the poor remain ever poorer. It is not a coincidence that the merger of the USGovt and big industry has occurred while the US Middle Class has suffered a tragic income reduction since the 1970’s. Pay no attention to official income statistics, which are a woefully concocted spew. They reduce nominal income by a grossly inadequate degree, greatly distorting any reduction from price inflation. A constant income over the past six years would have declined in real terms by 7% to 11% each year. That is roughly a 50% decline in real terms!!!

turdly said...

'June 29, 2007 7:23 AM
Hard to say. Calling the bubble "evil" makes it all too easy....'

Succinct and correct. Not much else to say.

SPECTRE of Deflation said...

Frank@NeverColdCall.com said...
Hard to say. Calling the bubble "evil" makes it all too easy to let idiots who bought at the peak, or who bought on option-arm loans, "victims."

To me, none of them are victims. It was their responsibility to read what they were signing. There's a good reason many of us didn't buy during the Ponzi scheme - we actually read the contracts and said "no thanks."

Sure, the REIC and NAR and realtwhores and sleazy mortgage peddlers were evil, but in the end, they didn't put a gun to anyone's head. Their sheeple victims willingly chose to "buy."

I agree with you concerning the legal aspects of liability of a loan or mortgage, but this would never have happened had the regulators been proactive with regard to predatory lending practices.

When Greenspam said people should tap their "wealth" [what a ficking joke] by using exotic mortgages, it couldn't be any more plain that he and the FED were just as much at fault as anyone or any institution in this debacle and in my book more so.

Liquid used to mean in cash, but they fooled the sheeple into thinking it was something very different.

Bottom line is that the elites can give a rat's ass about America or it's citizens.

SPECTRE of Deflation said...

Keith, this is too close to home for you in England. Sure you don't want to think about some personal protection just in case everything goes to Hell in a hand basket? Remember, as with Katrina, you can either be a lion or a lamb.


Foiled Attack...
'International elements' involved...
Al Qaeda suspected...
Central London street sealed off amid new alert...

turdly said...

June 29, 2007 2:20 PM
People lining up overnight to buy $600 iPhones and you tools are talking great depressions....

You couldn't be farther off base. Don't you wonder what those people in line do for a living? They are not contributors to the greater good, they are unemployed, underemployed, welfare recipients, or mentally challenged. If there are 500 people in that line, 10 of them won't have mainstream 40 hour jobs. Those that do are possibly cat-ladies. When they weren't in line for this phone they were in line for pogs, carebears,beenie babies.... What's next the rubber chicken craze comes back?
Bleeding edge technology is often wasted on the lowest possible denominator as they are the ones that fall hardest for the hype. It is indeed a major indicator of a problem. Conspicuous consumption by those that are not capable of producing the type of income that the lifestyle portends to.
These are the people who sign the bomb loans, have a 52" plasma while driving an 84 Cadillac. Or, they are children being indulged by parents who are just glad the kid is anywhere except home. It's all over the news, just take a look at those in line and ask yourself; 'would I hire that person?'.

And you can get off of the renter stump. With small exception here renting is a financial choice not a social trauma as you portray it to be.

Shakster said...

Frank@NeverColdCall.com said...
Hard to say. Calling the bubble "evil" makes it all too easy to let idiots who bought at the peak, or who bought on option-arm loans, "victims."

To me, none of them are victims. It was their responsibility to read what they were signing. There's a good reason many of us didn't buy during the Ponzi scheme - we actually read the contracts and said "no thanks."

Sure, the REIC and NAR and realtwhores and sleazy mortgage peddlers were evil, but in the end, they didn't put a gun to anyone's head. Their sheeple victims willingly chose to "buy
---------------------------------

Exactly Bingo
Bubbles aren't evil,they are just things,or events.People (Americans) on the other hand...........

kitchenstove said...

The Housing Bubble was evil because it was a scam.

Anonymous said...

Not evil at all.

Dummies and/or smart people blinded by greed got what they deserved.

Making one of the largest if not the largest purchase in your life and not understanding exploding ARMS - ridicilous prices and over extending just to have vaulted ceilings, granite countertops, and subzero refrigerators is not evil just incredibly dumb.

Realtors and the banks just sheared some sheep. Just part of the cycle.

Stuck in So Pa said...

"Anonymous said...
Hmm let's see. It made me close to $250K in less than 3 years, all tax free. Nope, can't find anything evil with that. Sorry.

And yes that was real profit as I cashed out. If others behind me got fucked over, it only proves Darwin was right yet again.

Calling profit evil is ridiculous.

And for all of you talking about values being destroyed and greed, give me a break. Whatever lack of values we have went away long before the housing boom.....

Come on people, think a little."

God, that is sooooo true! It's survival of the fittest, natural selection at it's finest, with the shrewd and cunning taking from the dumb and stupid, that's why we call them sheeple.

Evil implies malicious intent. Those at the top of the pile don't get up in the morning and say "I'm going to be evil today." They rightly assume that they deserve to get it all because well, THEY CAN AND DO GET IT ALL! That assumption is ingrained in them, beyond mere arrogance, by the sheer stupidity of the masses!
Lemmings plunge off cliffs and drown, thats a fact, nuff said!

"Do you expect them to pay, Dr.Evil?"

"No,Nooooooooooo Mr.Powers, I EXPEXT THEM TO DIE!"

SPECTRE of Deflation said...

Shakster said...
Frank@NeverColdCall.com said...
Hard to say. Calling the bubble "evil" makes it all too easy to let idiots who bought at the peak, or who bought on option-arm loans, "victims."

To me, none of them are victims. It was their responsibility to read what they were signing. There's a good reason many of us didn't buy during the Ponzi scheme - we actually read the contracts and said "no thanks."

Sure, the REIC and NAR and realtwhores and sleazy mortgage peddlers were evil, but in the end, they didn't put a gun to anyone's head. Their sheeple victims willingly chose to "buy
---------------------------------

Exactly Bingo
Bubbles aren't evil,they are just things,or events.People (Americans) on the other hand...........


Don't think for a moment this is simply an American phenomenon, as the housing and liquidity/debt bubbles are worldwide. Nobody will be exempt from the pain.

turdly said...

the ruling elite....

Is this a monetary consideration or a birthright? I had a tortured conversation on another post here with someone who's arguement boiled down to 'you make more than me, that makes you bad so I'll attack your age and station instead of the arguement.'

Is everyone comfortable where they are and are just going to lie down and take it? Are you happy being lower or middle class or upper class? Short of shooting wealthy people in the street, what's the plan to improve your station in life, and when will you have been too successfull and become 'the ruling elite'.
Does the ruling elite include sports figures and entertainers making disgusting amounts of money or does it just involve those with a political interest?
I'm seeing some ugliness rearing it's head here based on income. People posting as anon here make it hard to tell if we have a lot of consternation or just a prolific dunce.
I've been accused of being elitist based on your job. That's very untrue as I know a house painter that makes 8 times what a surgeon does so I couldn't care less what you do for a living just so you do it correctly. A station in life seems important to all here, when do you cross the lines? I'm not silly enough to think it's an absolute, but give me a couple of guesses.

borkafatty said...

It was stupid in the fact that so many sheeple feel for the ARM'S scam.

And for the lenders to take those ARM'S and make them even more Toxic than they already were...Not saying ARM'S are a bad thing in some situations ARM'S were a good thing for buyers who moved in 5 years or less...It's the Toxic ARM'S that I speak of IE: NEG ARM...JUMBO ARM- Teaser ARM & BALLOON ARM...and the CAP increases on some of that paper is beyond reality..to even consider putting your John Hancock on that is plain and simple ...STUPID!!!

Anonymous said...

Hey, when did Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson start wearing a uniform?

borkafatty said...

BWA HA HA HA. People lining up overnight to buy $600 iPhones and you tools are talking great depressions.

BWA HA HA HA!! Keep it up renters, this free entertainment you provide is great.

------------

The only Tool I see is the Tool that would actually pay $600 for a phone....now that is a tool at it's finest.

Stuck in So Pa said...

"Anonymous said...
the whole nation from improving education and other things that would make us competitive in the global economy.
***************************************************
I hope your not saying that education is underfunded because of the war!?! Seperate issues, but more money will not fix the educational system in this country...

There is too much money being spent on education in this country. The entire "industy" makes the mortgage profession seem squeaky clean. "



I read an article in the dentist's office quoting some international education associations evaluation of education worldwide. Seems we here in the U.S. are second only to Japan in per capita output (that's money spent) per pupil, for education in the 30-35 top industrialized countries of the world. On the output side, our kids rated at third (or fifth) from the bottom.
More money for education just goes to line already powerful and bloated teacher's union and administrator's association coffers, with those sooooo deserved pay and pension increases, with of course the standard "no accountability" contracts.

Remember "A Christmas Carol" when the ghost of Christmas present opens his robes to reveal the two children? "The boy is ignorance, the girl is want. Fear them both, but fear most of all this boy!"

This, above all else, is going to DOOM us as a nation!

Ignorance and stupidity be our norm!

Anonymous said...

Love of Money!


Love of money is the root of all sorts of evil!

hands on the wheel said...

"Does the ruling elite include sports figures and entertainers making disgusting amounts of money or does it just involve those with a political interest?"

Most lefties are closet Marxists - they believe in state ownership of assets and services and when pressed, will use words like "needs" and "equitable" to describe the way those assets are apportioned. For them, human labor is far more important than raw materials or intellectual property, so they are hugely biased towards the labor side of any production equation.

I find it odd and ironic when these same people then claim there is no basis for fundamental human rights outside of those granted by The State. They are typically OK with any type of abortion or euthanasia, and see families and religion as anachronisms, so anything goes in terms of marriage and parenting.

The media crudely portray this as a Red/Blue state conflict, but IMO it goes much deeper than that.

turdly said...

June 29, 2007 4:31 PM
"The boy is ignorance, the girl is want. Fear them both, but fear most of all this boy!"

Wow! forget all that other stuff I said, this is what I meant! That sure boils it down.

Do you think if the boy and girl married the kid would buy a house for 8 times income 8-)

RJ said...

As a 16 year veteran teacher, I have to agree with a couple of these posts which point out that throwing more cash at the ed system won't fix a thing (BTW it's not military vs. education. Education funding is largely a state matter, not federal). Teachers are leaving the profession in droves in California not because of the pay, but because of the working conditions. For example, one disruptive student can plague a classroom daily and hamper the education of thirty other kids while the teacher is powerless to get that student permanently removed unless the basketcase draws a knife, a gun or smokes crack in class. The whole system revolves around protecting the rights of the disruptive child to the detriment of the rest of other students. The ED code needs to be drastically changed.

RJ said...

The system of credit as it is currently structured is evil. Is a con job morally neutral because the victim was stupid or uninformed? A con job is successful because it is based on the weakness of its mark. People want to own a home and want to be financially secure and yes, want to make capital gains. Unfortunately, most people don't understand the investments they make. Lack of education is their fault. But that fact doesn't absolve the perpetrators of the scam. Especially when those perpetrators represent our elite in finance, scholarship, and government. People are getting an education now and will, hopefully, learn not to trust the elite. But the tuition is steep.

Anonymous said...

The housing bubble is blowing up the middle class and the american dream

Anonymous said...

america today is all about greed toys and greed

yuccatree3 said...

The housing bubble is blowing up the middle class and the american dream.
___________________________

Yep, that's it in a nutshell. Sad, but true....

turdly said...

http://www.mlive.com/columns/aanews/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1183128720238600.xml&coll=2

not exactly main stream media, but Michigan is having more than it's fair share of problems. What a breath of fresh air!

Anonymous said...

New home builders assuming that I deserved, or maybe even should, live in a McMansion.

Lone said...

The biggest beef I've had with this whole thing is that highschool educated morons (or highschool dropouts)think that they are they hot shit becuase they swindled some other dumbass into buying a home he could not afford in order to make thier commission.

The "get rich quick crowd" soared during this boom while failing to understand it was not anything THEY did, but rather it was easy access to credit.

Now I have to listen to these douchebags talk about how great they are.

Ask them about collaterized debt and they have no idea "that won't affect us man, we sell houses."

My thoughts exactly.

Anonymous said...

"Nope, can't find anything evil with that. Sorry."

Anon, when the mob burns down your house and rapes, not only you in the can, but your wife and children, if any, while you watch, when I am asked if I could find anything evil with that, I will simply say, "Nope, can't find anything evil with that. Sorry."

Come on Anon, think a little.

Anonymous said...

"just take a look at those in line and ask yourself; 'would I hire that person?'."

I love it- I apply the same considerations to people who buy sh*t a Baby Gap or Pottery Barn for Kids.

"Johnson, did you just buy your kid a $500 table for your kid at Pottery Barn for Kids?"

"Uh, yes Sir."

"You're fired because you're just plain stupid."

Anonymous said...

Stuck in So Pa and Anon- you both fail to appreciate the fact that we live in a civilized society, which in addition to applying written rules upon the populace, also applies unwritten rules, for example, which mostly relate to not f*cking over your fellow man.

That said, you guys all talk survival of the fittest and other bullshit, but I am sure you'd be singing a different tune when you and/or a member of your family get forcibly assraped. But hey, we don't need laws or social mores because it's all Darwinian anyway.

corvinus said...

The housing bubble is more evil than Dr. Evil.

westchester chick said...

I was actually at the mall today and saw the huge line for the iphone - this was at noon and the store didn't even open until 6. There were a few techy looking people on line that looked like they could easily afford the $600 phone and a $60/month connection but the marjority on the line didn't look the type. My guess is the iphone is small level speculation - with a line full of people buying them to resell on ebay.

Anonymous said...

it allows angry renters to buy homes at a fraction of their costs, while all the other buyers had to pay full price....this sucks....its just not fair damn it...

Hpy Babybmr in Glnd AZ said...

The housing bubble was kindness incarnate.

I sold my rental properties and life is grand.

I flipped a few houses before the crunch and now financial worries are behind me.

I paid off every debt and my mortgage and bring in a nice surplus every month.

I wait on the sidelines with funds in hand, for the next bubble to come along.

Buy low, sell high, its good advice you can't deny.

Stuck in So Pa said...

"Anonymous said...
Stuck in So Pa and Anon- you both fail to appreciate the fact that we live in a civilized society, which in addition to applying written rules upon the populace, also applies unwritten rules, for example, which mostly relate to not f*cking over your fellow man.

That said, you guys all talk survival of the fittest and other bullshit, but I am sure you'd be singing a different tune when you and/or a member of your family get forcibly assraped. But hey, we don't need laws or social mores because it's all Darwinian anyway."

I stand by my original post. We have degenerated into a nation of laws that, if you have the right connections, or belong to the right political party, YOU don't have to obey. See the example of DUMYA, on down. Once the law is deemed useless by the ruling elite, except when it applies to everyone but them, then it soon becomes useless to everyone. It's happening now because we as a nation have allowed it to happen. Darwinism can appear to be put on hold by our perceived notion of "civilization," but survival of the fittest always applies. I would not willingly wish ill on anyone, but just because it happens to me or someone I care about, I can't "change my tune."

I didn't write the song!

Anonymous said...

Our educational system sucks because they are teaching kids how to put comdoms on cucumbers instead of math and science. While the world turns out engineers and scientists, we turn people with degrees in diversity and women's studies. The American educational system is a joke from K to college. Only at the Grad School level are the student pushed to think and analyze on their own (excluding the multiculti crap).

Paul E. Math said...

Yes, the housing bubble is evil. In a couple ways that I can think of just now: 1) it steals from the honest and hard-working and; 2) it preys upon the weak-minded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big free-market guy. I believe in it and love it. The free market is the best way to improve productivity through innovation and to improve our collective standard of living, no small benefit.

But the free-market is NOT about fleecing the ignorant and taking advantage of the weak. The free market is good; this bubble was evil. It was the manipulation of wants and needs and the short-sightedness of the common man.

A speculative frenzy was created by the cyclical nature of low interest rates and lax lending standards creating immediate artificial demand for a product (housing) with long supply lead times. The financially unsophisticated conclude that prices will go up simply because prices have gone up and the cycle continues.

Who gained? It was just a transfer of wealth to those who did nothing of any real value: realtors, brokers and lenders. That's why the bubble was evil.

Anonymous said...

Hey, has mozilla been offering "free reach arounds" to move loans these days???????

Anonymous said...

Wallstreet's Greed
Fed Reserve's Greed
Mortgage Brokers' Greed
RealWhores' Greed
Homedebtors' Greed
Casey Serin's Greed
Donald Trumps' Greed
Illegal Immigrants' Greed
NAR's Greed
Politicans' Greed


Keth did I forget anyone?

K.W. - Southern Ca. said...

Don't forget that many of the realtors, brokers and lenders are in the same boat.

They dished up alot of evil, but they also treated themselves.

No sense predicting future events when we all know it's looking very bad for the masses in general - renters, house debters, home owners - it doesn't matter.

We're all consumers, and really on the economy as a whole to function properly. When that stops, we'll all feel the impact to some degree.


~~~

Paul E. Math said...
Yes, the housing bubble is evil. In a couple ways that I can think of just now: 1) it steals from the honest and hard-working and; 2) it preys upon the weak-minded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big free-market guy. I believe in it and love it. The free market is the best way to improve productivity through innovation and to improve our collective standard of living, no small benefit.

But the free-market is NOT about fleecing the ignorant and taking advantage of the weak. The free market is good; this bubble was evil. It was the manipulation of wants and needs and the short-sightedness of the common man.

A speculative frenzy was created by the cyclical nature of low interest rates and lax lending standards creating immediate artificial demand for a product (housing) with long supply lead times. The financially unsophisticated conclude that prices will go up simply because prices have gone up and the cycle continues.

Who gained? It was just a transfer of wealth to those who did nothing of any real value: realtors, brokers and lenders. That's why the bubble was evil.

K.W. - Southern Ca. said...

Mozillo, along with the rest of these crooks, have no choice to dump at a faster and faster pace.

Enough people have woken up now, realizing they've literally been robbed of their life savings, or that they'll be forced to work like slaves just to break even with expenses - if they're lucky.

Greed does kill eventually, but it would be justified if it hit home first for those like Mozillo.


GreedKills said...
The penultimate transfer of wealth.

seen Mozillo lately?...he's been going at it at double the pace since you last posted the yahoo finance insider transaction link.

Anonymous said...

My husband and I finished our graduate training (doctor, lawyer) in 2004, got our first "good" jobs, had a baby and just wanted to buy our first house and make it our own. Unfortunately, this was in 2004-2005. Although we were lucky enough to be able to afford a house in our area, we saw our purchasing power cut in half over a period of a couple years due to insane price inflation. I just couldn't bring myself to join the financial madness, and we are still renting (for a lot less than what our neighbors are paying in mortgage, I should add).

The tech stock bubble primarily hurt those whose greed got them actively involved, while the fall-out from the housing bubble affects many people who saw it for what it was and never wanted any part of it. That is what makes it particularly evil.