Ooohh, I can feel the anger and desperation in the air now...
Now that home values are dropping, record inventory is building, the REIC is on the run, the MSM is starting to report less of the BS and more of the reality, and Desperate Homedebtors want all the bubble sitters and bitter renters to just shut up and go away....
Yes, the battle has been joined. It's on.
The Epic Battle of the Desperate Homedebtors and REIC vs. the Bubble Sitters and Bitter Renters.
Let's get ready to ruummmblllleeeee!!!!
Blowfly said...
Is there anyone on this blog that has an IQ of 80 or higher? Reading your moron drivel makes me want to chuck it up.
Renting is good? I bet you're sleeping on mom's sofa! Freakin' uneducated hoi polloi.
February 06, 2007
A Desperate Homedebtor has a few choice words for HP'ers
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What I tell people who are mad at us HP's is...
If the whole thing isn't a Ponzi why are you mad at us for renting? You made the choice to BUY and we are making the choice to RENT!
So pay you tax bill and fix that roof I have no more time to argue. I am on the phone with my landlord, my plumbing is leaking!
"Hello Boris"
RayNLA
Is that vince mcmahn in the pic? I want him as our president. At least he knows how to have some fun.A cabinet full of divas to service your every need.
Someone needs to tell poor blowfly (what the heck is that anyways???) to stop goin' down on himself. It's cutting off his oxygen supply and producing incoherent thought. But that probably explains his waning career as a sub=prime mortgage broker...
Time to start fibbin on the resume!
I bought my house in Florida or $325,000 in 2002. My property taxes were $4000/year and insurance $1500.
I sold in 2005 for $550,000. The new owners property taxes for 2006 were $11450, his insurance $4000/year.
I took the proceeds and put them in a 6% CD and now rent a bigger and newer house the next town over for $2000/month.
So I fail to see how renting vs buying is a bad deal.
I know, we bubble sitters suck. We admit it, we suck. We're sorry.
Really, we are sorry, Mr. Captain America, non-negotiable way of life, homeowner lumpen shackled to life of raking leaves, cutting grass, interest payments, I get my balls every other weekend when Princess says I can have them off the mantle, home "owning" jackass.
I R went to college.
Do the Math.. Renting is way cheeper... and the money the bank does not get makes more money! Cash will be king!
I checked on Blowfly and I found him to be a senior citizen rap music artist
http://www.blowflymusic.com/
It shows a new single "Butt Pirate Luv / F U in the A"
REVEALED!
You can rent $$$ from a bank and take the risk of downside in house notional value or you can rent space from a landlord and push that risk onto him. And of course the implied dollar loss in taking that notional risk is baked into the dollars you pay the bank to rent money from them if you're a landlord.
So hell yeah I rent now.
I wrent, and I fluncd out of hi skrool, until I got stuk in Eye-rack.
Save me John Kerry and Blowfly!
There's a shortage of land and therefore, a shortage of housing.
Rents, therefore, can only go up along with RE valuations.
LOL!!
Hey, I have a I.Q. of 21 But I am currently renting! :)
Not everyone on this blog is a renter. I own, and it made sense to buy when I did, in the town I did at the price range I bought in and the location I bought in and the timing in my own life.
Try this on for size, 2723 sqft, brand new 5 bed house, 150,850, 3% down, 15 year fully amortising at 5% in summer 2003, in a town called Charlotte, North Carolina ~12 miles from the center of the city.
My payments including taxes and insurance are under 1500 a month. They broke that 1400 mark in 2006, till then it was under 1400. AKA just about cheaper than rent.
My life, just had a 4 month old baby and having a growing garage based motorcycle side business = need a house. Rent would have been ~1400 right from day 1 for a similar house, I was looking at 2100 sqft for 12-1300.
If it makes financial sense, buy. dont buy for some mythical appreciation to come in a wipe your slate clean when you're dropping under water with each house payment.
Cool.
Cow_tipping.
I rent a condo for $1300 a month that would cost some knife catching idiot $340-380k to purchase (and some idiot will). Do the math Blowhard, this condo is depreciating fast (even zillow agrees). I am way smarter than you, bank slave!
Currently renting + saving. Purchasers make sure you make your mortgage payment this month so interest on my cash will be credited accordingly.
Your friend, the loan shark.
Real estate: Tucson is terrific no more after '06 reality check
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2007-02-06-close-tucson_x.htm
Tucson: 2006 'definitely a time of adjustment'
Updated 2/6/2007 4:32 AM ET
By Noelle Knox, USA TODAY
After five years of blockbuster home sales, 2006 delivered a reality check for homeowners in Tucson. Sales of single-family homes skidded 33% from 2005, and price appreciation last year dropped to 8%, down from nearly 27% in 2005, according to DataQuick Information Systems.
With a hefty 9.5-month supply of homes for sale, about 3,000 homeowners took their homes off the market last year. An additional 3,700 homes sat on the market so long that the listing agreements (which typically last three to six months) expired with the homes unsold.
"This is a sure indication that some sellers have unrealistic goals or have been given poor advice when bringing their property to market," according to a year-end report by Long Cos., a Tucson real estate firm.
"December was a little quiet, and 2006 was definitely a time of adjustment here," says Martha Briggs, an agent at Long Realty. But last year's sales figures were on par with the 2000-03 period; they "only look terrible in comparison with 2005."
"There's a shortage of land and therefore, a shortage of housing.
Rents, therefore, can only go up along with RE valuations.
LOL!!"
Not certain if that was sarcasm or just plain stupidity, but either way, its a pretty short-sighted and ignorant statement.
Just some facts for all the housing pollyannas out there.
With our current population, we use up approximately 3-4% of the available land mass of the continental United States. Now I am no geologist, but that would seem to indicate there is PLENTY of land. But hey, if you don't believe me, take a cross country drive someday. Feeling crowded is not likely an emotion you will experience.
And incidentally, if you don't believe that logic, why don't you ask the Japanese about their land shortage and current housing situation. I'm sure they have a few stories to tell you.
Oh, and to that "Blowfly" fella:
Sit tight my friend. I'm sure either myself or one of the other members of this forum will be happy to buy your home from the bank via REO after you've defaulted on the I/O payments.
Here's my take. If you own a home that you bought years ago, and you like it, the only stress you would have is that you didn't cash out at the top when you could have. Oh well, that's OK. A house is a home, not a lottery ticket. And you might have some stress that you can't sell your home and buy a new home today, because prices are too high and don't make economic sense.
Homedebtors are only stupid in my book if they cash-out refied, and if they bought in the past two to three years at the peak.
However, anyone thinking of buying a home today would be insane, first because prices are dropping and will continue to drop and second becuase renting is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than owning.
Blowfly don't bother me, blowfly don't bother me, blowfly don't bother me....
Go f*ck yourself.
"Homedebtors are only stupid in my book if they cash-out refied, and if they bought in the past two to three years at the peak."
There you have it. All youz daddy has spoken. NOT ALL home debtors are fucked. Get it through you schadenfreude infested skulls. An I know MANY homedebtors not F-d due to cash out refis our Helocs. I myself only refied once to bring the rate down and thats it! The idiot lender laughed at me when I said I didnt want cash back.
Believe it or not, people in Southern California are still buying homes. Toxic loans of course. As long as there are stupid ass ignorant people and a asshole lender with toxic loan in hand... a deal will be made. My neighbor just sold his house, 1 month, and for asking price!! Still buying, at asking price, after 1 month on market..WTF!!??. Makes me want to unload my house on a sucker. But like Keith said its a home not a lottery ticket.
Tell me who sleeps better at night. Me the bitter renter who sold a PHX stucco shit box to a FB homedebtor with $0 down and a subprime mortgage from OWN-IT, a company who already bit the dust. My profit was $38K and I was pissed. Or the poor schmuck who bought the shitbox and struggles with all the bullshit payments and maintence. My rent is only $1400 a month.I sleep very well, next week I go to Hawaii I am sure that the FB can't go.
I've been reading this blog for a while and it has certainly helped decide what to do next. I also believe as Keith and others have said, sometimes there is a right time to buy. I have owned four houses over the past 10 years, and up until the current one, I have caught the wave up. The other bonus in all of this is that various companies have moved me, and paid all closing costs etc. Now I am being moved again, and we bought 8 months ago at the peak. The company will buy our house at what we bought it for 8 months ago, even though it has lost value. However we have paid some bank a ton of interest and a town a ton for garbage pickup. So in this next move to lovely NJ, we are definitely going to rent, and thank our lucky stars that the company is going to take the hit and not us. Also, we are not sure that we can stomach this state for more than 2 years, another reason to definitely not buy.
It seems to me that owners forget to deduct all the interest (tax adjusted) and property taxes off of their potential equity. If I do that, sure we made out OK, but we certainly paid a bank a boatload.
Finally, we looked at some rental properties yesterday- the first 'agent' agreed with my theory of renting, she said don't buy! The other said " I have never seen a depreciation in the market in this town, and I have been doing this for 25 years" Exit me stage right on that loopy woman.
Even a quick look on the zip at 'directional' zillow confirmed that she and the mad hatter had more than her funny hat in common.
Blowfly is one of many desperate upside down homeowners who's greed for easy money has put them in alot of hot water. Oh the spring justice is going to be good!!! Did the groundhog see his shadow? I think we are going to have an early spring!!!
Justice is coming!!!
Why do all renters assume all owners bought in July 2005 with 0% down and a negative option ARM. There are about 100 million homes/condos in the US. In 2005 there were 7 million homes/condos bought. Do the math geniuses, it's a small % of people who are fucked. Even of that 7%, 50%+ were purchases in places like Dallas or Atlanta or Salt Lake City where prices have increased since 2005.
The only people who are truly fucked are those who bought in '05 in CA, AZ, Miami and Las Vegas. Everyone else is just fine.
I keep hearing" "things should come back in the spring". Why that should happen ... well that's a real good question. I predict more legal actions taken from people who "didn't understand" what they were signing when they got their $500k no money down loan for some run of the mill McMansion. I don't understand either...
Lots of refences to zillow on this blog. I bought my home for $299K. Zillow had it at as high as $479K at one point about a year ago. Went down to a low of $431K this past October. Now it's at $444K.
I put $0 down. I have a 7 year ARM (not a negative option ARM, not an interest only ARM, a conventional loan fixed for 7 years) at 4.5% good until March 2010.
My mortgage payment including tax/insurance is $1493 a month. To rent a smililar home in my area would cost at least $2000.
Desperate? Angry? Not in the least. I am quite content actually and very happy I took the path I took.
"Why do all renters assume all owners bought in July 2005 with 0% down and a negative option ARM."
Why do you assume that all renters assume that?
OTOH, it's a safe assumption that the 0% down neg-am peak buyers who set the prices at the margin on the way up will do the same on the way down.
Nice ad hominem argument, there Blowfly. Since you're obviously ignorant of what that means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Come on back when you have anything substantial to debate. Personally, I'm hoping the large number of bearish indicators prove wrong this time and would love to hear your explanation as to why this might be so, not only for housing, but for the economy at large. Enlighten us.
Blowfly, I hope you are gathering that some of us wound up as renters owing to any number of circumstances. In my case, I bought pre-peak, and might have kept the house but for a divorce. Even after splitting the bubble money, I had a huge pile of cash, yet not enough to buy back into the old neighborhood. Houses became absurdly over-valued, and hordes of people were showing up to buy a humble condo for triple its worth two years earlier. I've owned houses, I've rented. Pros and cons to each. Why all the venom? And what in the above scenario makes you question my intelligence? What would you have done?
p.s. - I invested the cash in mutual funds that proceeded to do quite well. One of them "locks in" the market peak, which serves nicely as a hedge against the worse-case scenario (hoping against a market crash, but at least I'm protected). So - what's your investment strategy?
Why do all renters assume all owners bought in July 2005 with 0% down and a negative option ARM.
We dont think they all did just the 40%-70% of them that were reported from the lending companies themselves. If that does not apply to you then dont worry about it. The other reason is not that we are bitter and mad it is just that some of us are able to do some basic math and understand when the value is out of wack.
"Why do all renters assume all owners bought in July 2005 with 0% down and a negative option ARM."
Why do you assume that all renters assume that?
Uhm I dunno posts like 3:43, 4:03, 5:10 etc which all assume owning = in over your head and about to foreclose.
I don't exactly know what my IQ is, but I got 1560 on my SAT's, back before they dumbed down the test in 1995. Some people figure that translates into an IQ of 156. I have a masters in math, BTW.
We own our house, but we looked into selling a couple of years ago. We live in Kansas City, which is not bubbleland, and we figured it was unlikely our house would drop in price more than 20K, and it wouldn't be worth the hassle to move for what would be left after moving expenses.
Keith is painting the situation a little broadly, as much of the midwest and south do not have bubbles, but he is absolutely right about the prospects of newer homeowners in bubbleland, and what the ramifications will be for society when this unwinds.
To follow along with Anon in Florida...
I bought an $100k 3/2.5 1800 sq. ft. 2 car garage investment house in 1997 with less than $2000 in closing costs, the Seller paid $10k for my downpayment (bank portfolio loan). It's been rented for 10 years on a 15 year mortgage. At a fire sale price the house is worth $170k. I sold 2 others last year with very similar numbers.
Keep on renting people. I love renters!
Don't make the arguement about renting versus owning. Renting IS stupid. I rented for 10 years and it sucked eggs. It's all about timing. Buy when you can afford it.
Renting over the long term isn't smart. Would I buy an investment house today? It depends. Would I buy a house to flip? No way, that's stupid.
Anon 10:29:30...that is the whole point. Renting over the long term is stupid you say? But the time frame keeps increasing. In many markets when you do a rent vs buy calculation the time you would have to own to have an advantage is over 20 years.
The vast majority of people only live in a house less than 7 years. The percentage of people who should rent instead of buy is very high...not everyone of course...but a much higher percentage than 3 years ago before the run up.
You know how Blowflies manifest, don't you?
MAGGOT -- EATING YOUR FLESH.
Anon 9:29 your situtation is same as mine. I have my bubble cash and my exwife took her's and bought in her home town of Vancouver, BC. My funds are invested 50% cash, 15% gold, 20% equities and 15% muni bonds.
I would not have sold because of liked my house but it didn't make sense for me on one daughter to be in 4 bedroom house.
I will rent for now and buy later.
label renters as inferior 2nd-class citizens.
I bought well before the bubble. I think renters are inferior too. I see renters as the equivalent of people on the bus. Poor, uneducated, non-white, low income. Sure there are exceptions and and in some cities like NY, even the well off take public transportation simply because it is more efficient than driving. And like with the bus people, the vast majority of renters are low lives. Some, like many posters here rent because they think that renting is better than owning and hence make that choice as opposed to having that choice made for them by their financial circumstances.
Funny, many of my friends who own, (of course almost all bought ages ago and used a real downpayment etc) have complimented me for not allowing my husband to buy in an over heated market after we transfered here, so we are just sitting here with our good credit, pile of cash in a house that would cost 3x what we rent it for, and not worrying about maintenance is a revelation, I remodeled both of my last houses, and have discovered how nice it is nice to have free time to enjoy our boats/cars and vacations. Can I have a loser renter T-shirt please, pretty please?
We "own" a house in a bubble market. Purchasing the house made sense at the time as we bought before the bubble really got underway. Property taxes will probably be around 2000.00 CAD per annum once the dust settles. We haven't received our bill yet. I am a renter too (for our office space here). They just jacked the rent up $200.00 per month, but it's still dirt cheap.
I rented for years, and when my spouse and I moved in together, we rented for over a year. It was fine being a renter. This was in a condo - I did some of the simple repairs, but when there was an ice dam/water leak in the kitchen area, I had to get in touch with the landlord to get that fixed.
One of the problems with being responsible for real property is that stuff is always breaking and needing repairs. If you're renting, you can pick up the phone and tell the landlord, but if its your own place you have to pay for the repair or DIY. I've spent a substantial amount of money maintaining our house.
In our situation, having a house is worthwhile, but if you were about to enter our housing (hosing?) market it would probably make sense to wait and rent for a while.
"And like with the bus people, the vast majority of renters are low lives."
WOW!
I rent a place in downtown San Francisco, for $670/month. Because of rent control, I can pretty much stay here with no problems, as I have for the past 11 years, socking away the savings.
The alternative is paying through the nose for some crappy condo, which would be at LEAST $500K, and add on to that the HOA fees, which in many cases, are equal to my total rent right now.
My landlord and apartment manager fix whatever needs fixing, and I'm free to spend my time and savings on whatever I like.
I know, I'm a total loser.
"Keep on renting people. I love renters!"
How about "Keep on subsidizing my savings, landlord! I love rent control?!"
When I make the jump, and I suspect I will eventually, it won't be until all my fundamentals line up. Until then, my landlord can just keep losing money on me every year.
anon said:
"Don't make the arguement about renting versus owning. Renting IS stupid. I rented for 10 years and it sucked eggs. It's all about timing. Buy when you can afford it."
I just love these moronic blanket statements! Buy when you can afford. Duh OK, I can afford a 1.25 million dollar home so I'll go buy it and watch its value implode. These people must be saying it just to wind us up, they can't be serious. It IS all about the timing, and now is not the time. I can't wait to take the 500,000 I have in equity (from buying and selling at the right time) that I have sitting in an account earning 8% in bonds, and buying at the right time in about 2 years.
I wonder what kind of shitholes you renters live in or used to live in. You mention maintenance over and over. What exactly are you all maintaining or used to maintain before finding your new maintenance free renting lifestyle?
I change the air filter every 3 months (15 mins), change the pool filters every 6 months (45 mins), change the fridge water filer every 2 months (2 minutes) and ocasionally have to unclog a sink (10-20 mins). I have desert landscaping and a drip irrigation system with a timer, meaning practically no time spent on yard work save trimming plants once every 2-3 months (1 hour). So in total, I spend maybe 10 hours a year on maintenance.
WOW, Renting would save me all that time? Gee what a fool I've been all these years!!
Wichi is more stupid:
1. renting
2. option ARM $800K home on a teacher's salary?
As a member of Mensa I can say renting is better, I have time to read and surf the net - while my homedebtor friends fix things all the time, money being sucked down the black hole.
ROFLMAO!!!
I rent a luxury apartment 200 yards from the beach for about half of what it would cost to "buy" a comparable condo. Buy now? I don't think so. Maybe I'll pick one up (or two or three) once the price comes down by 50-70% over the next few years.
@11:06 I thought a low life was a criminal... I have some criminals on my bus but mostly not. (I hope not!) Some are disabled, some are retired, lots and lots are students, and some are just poor. Young mothers, teenagers, people whose cars broke down and they can't afford a rental while it's being repaired, etc.
Also, sometimes you have people at lunch or whatever taking a bus because it's convenient. These sorts used to commute by bus and some of them still do when the housing/work location works out, but with companies spreading out into more and more remote areas, less and less people can get to work on public transit, making commutes worse and slowly draining that core commuter traffic.
Even on my bus, there is definitely a "rush hour" with commuters filling certain trips ... it's just less than certain other places I've worked because I live in a college town now and there aren't a lot of good jobs--just service industry, I guess the hospitals too.
"Why do all renters assume all owners bought in July 2005 with 0% down and a negative option ARM."
Keep in mind that many people also refinanced existing homes with toxic mortgages and/or acquired HELOCs. Many people have over extended themselves and we are seeing it in the national savings rate numbers. The foreclosures are increasing rapidly which will have a cascading affect on the housing market throughout 2007 and beyond.
For the people who did buy pre-2000 who have nothing to worry about and did not cash out, I respect your decisions.
I consider myself a risk taker when I sold in 2005 to truly cash out of the bubble and became a temporary renter. The plan is to rebuy in 2009-2011 (it all depends on research). The idea is to not have a mortgage.
There is not one right answer. Everyone makes decisions based on what is right for them.
In 1995 2 BD condo was 670$ rent.
I bought it and my mortgage was 450$ on 63000$ property with 3% down.
In 2004 sold it for 135,000$,and now I'm renting biger one for 830$.
To buy now is close to suicide (financial),by buying now you are paying someone's SUV and Hawaii vacation what they took on the equity of the property they passing on to you.
Which would be more stupid for a young single person who graduated from college the past three years:
1. Renting
2. Taking out an option ARM on an $800K 1200sf 1950's house in the Bay Area
The dumbest ones of all
- anyone who buys an overpriced asset that is declining in value
- anyone who doesn't sell an overpriced asset that is declining in value
I remember all those geniuses running around back during the dotcom days whooping and hollering about how rich they were - a couple of years later they were crying and cursing their fate. They remind me of today's lowlife morons, hundreds of thousands in debt, who think they own their house. Show me the title, then I'll believe it's your house. Until then, the real owner is some MBS buyer from China or Japan.
My advice: sell your bubble real estate. Take the money and run before it's too late! I did and am having the time of my life here on a tropical island. A real Margaritaville. Oh well, I'm off to a gourmet meal. Have fun, suckers!!! Don't forget, you have to get up and go to work in the morning to make that mortgage payment. I, on the other hand, will be sleeping late.
i don't know about renters but people on the bus are indeed low-life scum.
Goshh, I just signed a lease on a condo for $1450/ month including utilities. If I purchased the same unit my cost would be $3000+/month. Well, instead of giving away my $1500/month in interest and trying to hold on to my job as hard as I can (since if I get unemployed I will lose the home) I decide to rent and save the $1500/month until I find sth that will not take all my salary away every month.
It is not our fault that houses tripled in the last 6 years, and many people like I am are not willing to pay $300K to an owner who paid $100K for their home a few years ago.
To all the Scottsdale haters who think everyone there is an uneducated rube making $11 an hour and has a 3 hour commute to work and has a $900K negative option ARM:
- Median Income: $84,000
- Median Home: $370,000
- Completed some college: 73%
- Median commute time: 21 minutes
- 134 golf courses within 30 miles
What a ghetto.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/
2006/snapshots/PL0465000.html
134 golf courses within 30 miles
Play golf in 120 degree weather?
No one here is disagreeing with you Scottsdale is upscale.
But most here would agree that Scottsdale population just represents an miniscule fraction of the population of Arizona. AS an ex AZ resident and famil that are still there, I can say that IN GENERAL the population of AZ are lower educated, lower income residents of the United States. AZ is and has always been A POVERTY STATE when compared to oter states. Again, only a fraction of the population make over 80k. TRUST ME.
"My advice: sell your bubble real estate. Take the money and run before it's too late! I did and am having the time of my life here on a tropical island."
So now you are some low life island troll hobit nomad? What kind of life is that. Loser. Again, it doesnt make sense for all homedebtors to sell.I live in a bubbly town. If I sell I walk away with 300k. Great right? But then what. Wait for prices to drop 50%. I STILL WONT AFFORD THE SAME HOME. So go fuck yourself Jimmy Buffet.
AZ is a poverty state...compared to what? CA, NY? OK I suppose. But then every state is a poverty state compared to those two.
Who's bettet off? Someone making $100K and paying $2500 for a studio apartment in NY or someone making $50K and paying $600 for a 2 bedroom apartment in Phoenix? Not to mention that in NY a sandwich at a deli costs $8 while that same sandwich can be had for $3.50 in Phoenix.
Actually somebody making 100k with a $1400 dollar mortgage and no other debt is the best off! That be me! Did I mention I live in California and have I am an equity giant? I might move to Scottsdale CASH.
Anonymous said...
In 1995 2 BD condo was 670$ rent.
I bought it and my mortgage was 450$ on 63000$ property with 3% down.
In 2004 sold it for 135,000$,and now I'm renting biger one for 830$.
To buy now is close to suicide (financial),by buying now you are paying someone's SUV and Hawaii vacation what they took on the equity of the property they passing on to you.
February 07, 2007 4:16 AM
---------------
BINGO!!
I rent but was curious about a place that was under market value & advertised as a "short sale". The seller got into trouble financially, had paid 440k, but now at 459k 2 years later they owed more than the price paid. The bank then decided they did not want to take a loss and now wants the full loan balance & sales commissions covered raising the price to 475k.
Sorry not only an I not about to pay for the realtwhore commissions nor am I going to pay for someone else's SUV anything else they pissed their fake equity away on.
"In OC there are actually self-made people like me."
Ob boy, are you in for a major culture shock! OC is chock full of pretentious, HELOC-COCK sucking,house ATM, Option ARM, $30,000 millionaires!!! Do some research fool. Good luck living next to the Real House-whores of the OC!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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